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787 Problèmes électriques

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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Beochien le Lun 7 Jan 2013 - 17:45

Bon, vu par le Cousin !
Ca fume dur côté soute AR d'un B787 JAL à Boston !
Soute à priori vidée, en escale, donc, possible feu électrique !
Bien, il ne repartira pas ce soir celui là !
Avion, juste livré avant Noël!


http://twitpic.com/btav08

Commentaire (Twitter) des pompiers :

Boston Fire Dept. ‏@BostonFire

Fire was in a compartment with batteries and other electrical components. Boston Fire assisted Massport Fire.

et :

The component on fire was a battery used to power an auxiliary power unit. Halatron used to extinguish fire.

Ca commence à bien faire côté feu électrique, surtout pour des vols "Transpacique" !




Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Lun 7 Jan 2013 - 21:27

Bon je l'ai mis ailleurs, mais c'est bien là aussi

Ca sent pas bon... notamment pour l'ETOPS


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Beochien le Lun 7 Jan 2013 - 21:49

Des batteries Lithium Ion, d'après Okhly, quand on sait les dégâts déjà provoqués dans le freight !
Qq raisons de s’inquiéter !

Et je sens le vrai pépin approcher, on va de surprise en surprise, gare à une plus sévère que les autres, où simplement au mauvais moment !

Différentes sur le A350, les batteries ... hum ... leur gestion, peut être, c'est à suivre aussi !


Dernière édition par Beochien le Lun 7 Jan 2013 - 22:05, édité 2 fois

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Lun 7 Jan 2013 - 21:55

Bolloré z'auront la solution pour tout le monde (lithium polymere)... un peu plus lourd mais plus sur... ou LiPO4
http://www.enerzine.com/14/11172+bollore-vise-40000-batteries-lithium-metal-polymere-an+.html
J'dis ça j'dis rien et j'suis au courant de rien


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Beochien le Lun 7 Jan 2013 - 22:18

Assez marrant de voir la succession de hoquets (Site down) sur A.net, quand le B787 a des ennuis ... beuh, du filtrage en temps réel ?? alien

pascal83
Whisky Quebec

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par pascal83 le Lun 7 Jan 2013 - 23:08


Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Beochien le Lun 7 Jan 2013 - 23:08

Ben voilà, de AP ! Rare info, tout paraît bloqué !

http://www.wtop.com/209/2990765/Small-fire-sends-smoke-into-787-cabin-in-Boston-

"The 787 uses two lithium ion batteries _ including one for the auxiliary power unit, according to a Boeing guide for firefighters dealing with the 787.

The rechargeable batteries, widely used in consumer devices, have some pilots worried because batteries being shipped as cargo are suspected to have caused or contributed to the severity of fires in cargo planes.

When Boeing proposed using the batteries in the 787, the Federal Aviation Administration issued special rules, including a requirement that they be designed to prevent overheating.

The FAA noted in its 2007 rule that, "In general, lithium ion batteries are significantly more susceptible to internal failures that can result in self-sustaining increases in temperature and pressure. ... The metallic lithium can ignite, resulting in a self-sustaining fire or explosion."

The severity of overheating is higher in larger batteries, the FAA said in the rule."

Alors, les batteries du A350 ?? Elles seront de chez Bolloré ??

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 8 Jan 2013 - 9:54

Bon tu sais quoi comme pour bcp d'autres choses on va attendre les résultats des investigations

Ce coup ci, la FAA et le NTSB sont sur le coup...

Ca fait désordre c'est sûr... mais moins qu'un comet qui se désintégre ou qu'un plancher de DC10 qui s'effondre


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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 8 Jan 2013 - 10:45

Pour info

La "special condition" pour les batteries Li-ion du 787

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSC.nsf/0/80b9e22f91f3ae59862572cd00701404!OpenDocument


In lieu of the requirements of 14 CFR 25.1353(c)(1) through (c)(4), the
following special conditions apply. Lithium ion batteries on the Boeing
Model 787-8 airplane must be designed and installed as follows:

(1) Safe cell temperatures and pressures must be maintained during any
foreseeable charging or discharging condition and during any failure of
the charging or battery monitoring system not shown to be extremely
remote. The lithium ion battery installation must preclude explosion in
the event of those failures.

(2) Design of the lithium ion batteries must preclude the occurrence of
self-sustaining, uncontrolled increases in temperature or pressure.

(3) No explosive or toxic gases emitted by any lithium ion battery in
normal operation, or as the result of any failure of the battery
charging system, monitoring system, or battery installation not shown to
be extremely remote, may accumulate in hazardous quantities within the
airplane.

(4) Installations of lithium ion batteries must meet the requirements of 14 CFR 25.863(a) through (d).

(5) No corrosive fluids or gases that may escape from any lithium ion
battery may damage surrounding structure or any adjacent systems,
equipment, or electrical wiring of the airplane in such a way as to
cause a major or more severe failure condition, in accordance with 14
CFR 25.1309(b) and applicable regulatory guidance.

(6) Each lithium ion battery installation must have provisions to
prevent any hazardous effect on structure or essential systems caused by
the maximum amount of heat the battery can generate during a short
circuit of the battery or of its individual cells.

(7) Lithium ion battery installations must have a system to control the
charging rate of the battery automatically, so as to prevent battery
overheating or overcharging, and,

(i) A battery temperature sensing and over-temperature warning system
with a means for automatically disconnecting the battery from its
charging source in the event of an over-temperature condition, or,

(ii) A battery failure sensing and warning system with a means for
automatically disconnecting the battery from its charging source in the
event of battery failure.

(Cool Any lithium ion battery installation whose function is required for
safe operation of the airplane must incorporate a monitoring and
warning feature that will provide an indication to the appropriate
flight crewmembers whenever the state-of-charge of the batteries has
fallen below levels considered acceptable for dispatch of the airplane.

(9) The Instructions for Continued Airworthiness required by 14 CFR
25.1529 must contain maintenance requirements for measurements of
battery capacity at appropriate intervals to ensure that batteries whose
function is required for safe operation of the airplane will perform
their intended function as long as the battery is installed in the
airplane. The Instructions for Continued Airworthiness must also contain
procedures for the maintenance of lithium ion batteries in spares
storage to prevent the replacement of batteries whose function is
required for safe operation of the airplane with batteries that have
experienced degraded charge retention ability or other damage due to
prolonged storage at a low state of charge.


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Beochien le Mar 8 Jan 2013 - 11:05

Merci Poncho !
Je le lisais aussi !
Ben, si avec tout ça ils ont réussi à Kramer la batterie quand même ...
Bon, c'est sûr qu'il n'y avait personne dans le cockpit pour suivre les alarmes !

Vu sur A.net, que le compartiment était suffisamment blindé pour éviter des atteintes où la propagation à la structure de l'avion, mais visiblement pas pour éviter les fumées, au sol du moins !

Par contre, suivant A.net, que l'APU ne soit utilisée qu'au sol, et tout le panneau hors tension, dés l'arrêt de l' APU, me paraît beaucoup plus incertain !
Et le zero influence sur les ETOP's, hum, ça m'étonnerait aussi qu'il n'y ait pas qq interconnections avec d'autres bus, ne serait ce que pour contrôler les niveaux de charge et les maintenir pendant le vol si nécessaire !

D'autre part, ça m'étonnerait que le B787 se prive de cette source d'énergie de secours,(La batterie de l'APU) just in case ..; (C'est juste mon idée)

JPRS

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 8 Jan 2013 - 11:14

Toi avoir trop souffert dans tes mariages... cramer on dit

Tu confonds avec Kramer contre Kramer le film ? Wink

Pour moi pas possibles que les batteries ne soient pas chargées en vol... quand tout va bien histoire qu'elles soient pleine en cas de besoin...


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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 8 Jan 2013 - 11:25



_________________
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 8 Jan 2013 - 15:08

Une saine lecture complémentaire

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323482504578227621155767836.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection

Bon l'avion a moins d'un moins
Et le NTSB n'a pas encore ouvert formellement d'enquête


_________________
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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Beochien le Mar 8 Jan 2013 - 21:11

Re beuh !

UA inspecte ses avions côté câblages et batteries ...

et ... selon Jon Ostrower, pas trop sur la réserve sur ce coup ...

Sur son Tweeter ...

BREAKING WSJ: Inspection Reveals Improper Battery Wiring On One United 787 - Source

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/288717418895904770

Vont avoir mal à la tête, Boeing, ce soir !

JPRS

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 8 Jan 2013 - 21:33

Comme tu dis
Le ramp up de la prod à l'air de se passer pile poil comme il faut


_________________
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 8 Jan 2013 - 23:17



Bon ben pas tant de dégâts que ça...
Par contre, elle me fait une drôle d'impression cette photo... ça fait sacrément fouillis comme intérieur...


_________________
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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Beochien le Mar 8 Jan 2013 - 23:28

Il est immobilisé pour qq jours le bel Avion de JAL !

Je pense que la batterie qui a chauffé et fondu, avait son propre casing renforcé !
Qui a été sorti avec elle même (A coups de hache de pompier paraît il) What a Face
Bien, ils ont peut être sauvé l'avion ! alien

Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Beochien le Mer 9 Jan 2013 - 8:24

Vu ça sur A.net , quote CM rep 249 !

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5653555

How do you come to this conclusion? The cause is almost certain to be a manufacturing defect in the battery (by far the leading cause of runaway in Li-ion batteries). The batteries are supplied by Thales (a long-time top-shelf supplier in this business) and were made for Thales by Yuasa of Japan (one of the world's leading battery manufacturers). Are you suggesting it would be a better battery if Boeing made it in-house?

Effectivement Yuasa est un trés bon industriel JAP et depuis des décennies ...

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mer 9 Jan 2013 - 9:31

Bon un long article bien foutou
Qui rappelle tout


http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2020084827_787fireinvestigationxml.html

4 incidents précédents sur des circuits basse tension (carte électroniques défaillantes... pb de qualité sur un lot fait au mexique pour UTC


High-energy batteries


The Dreamliner — whose electrical systems generate 1.45 megawatts of
electricity, enough to power 600 homes and four times as much as a
larger 777 jet — carries two large lithium-ion batteries, located in
forward and rear electronics bays.


The battery in the rear bay that caught fire is about one and a half times the size of a car battery.


It's used to start the auxiliary power unit (APU), a small turbine
engine in the tail that is used to provide electrical power while the
plane is on the ground, or as a backup power source during an in-flight
emergency.


According to NTSB preliminary findings, airplane maintenance and
cleaning personnel were on the airplane with the APU in operation when
they observed smoke in the cabin.


Emergency personnel who responded "detected a fire in the electronics
and equipment bay near the APU battery box," the NTSB stated. "The fire
was extinguished about 40 minutes after arrival of the first rescue and
fire personnel."


"One firefighter received minor injuries," the NTSB said.


Aviation analyst Scott Hamilton of Leeham.net
said he expects the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to soon issue
an airworthiness directive mandating some precautionary actions.


"I'd be surprised if the FAA doesn't quickly come out with an
inspection order," Hamilton said. "Airlines are going to be doing this
anyway."


Monday's fire at Logan follows an in-flight fire during a 2010
Dreamliner test flight, and the four more recent incidents involving
faulty electrical panels while the jet was in service.


Sinnett said the first of the electrical-panel problems occurred last
summer. He didn't name the airline, but back then only All Nippon
Airways and Japan Airlines were flying the Dreamliner. The incident
wasn't made public at the time.


He said the issue occurred again in December on a United flight that
had to be diverted to New Orleans; a few days later on a Qatar delivery
flight from Everett to Doha; and then again on a second United jet.


United in late December reported "sporadic issues with our 787 generators and power distribution panels."


Sinnett said all four incidents were traced to faulty circuit boards from a single manufacturing batch.


The person with knowledge of the problems said the flawed circuit
boards are manufactured in Mexico for United Technologies, which
supplies the power distribution panels to Boeing.


However, the person said the only impact of the arcing in the circuit
boards was to cut off some of the plane's power supply from a
generator, but not enough to present any safety issue. None of the
planes involved was ever in danger, the person said.


Sinnett said Boeing is still working to fix that problem.


Despite those in-flight incidents, he said, the 787 is "running at a
high dispatch reliability, on a par with where we were on the 777 at
this point."


Et puis ce feu



The Logan fire incident is much more serious, however.


In 2007, the FAA noted that the large, high-capacity, rechargeable
lithium-ion batteries Boeing is using on the Dreamliner differ
significantly from the nickel-cadmium or lead acid batteries used on
other jets.


Commercial aviation has "limited experience" with such batteries, the
agency said, noting that in other applications "lithium ion batteries
are significantly more susceptible to internal failures that can result
in self-sustaining increases in temperature."


Also, overcharging of lithium-ion batteries can generate high
temperatures so that "the metallic lithium can ignite, resulting in a
self-sustaining fire or explosion," the FAA said.


Because of those concerns, the agency attached special safety
conditions governing the design and maintenance of the 787 batteries.


It said the jet's batteries must specifically preclude any heat
buildup and include monitoring and warning systems in case of any
failures.


Sinnett said Boeing has met those design requirements.


He said there are four levels of protection to prevent the most dangerous scenario, that the battery overcharges.


Addressing an online report by The Wall Street Journal Tuesday that
when United inspected its Dreamliner batteries after the Logan fire, it
found some faulty wiring installed, Sinnett insisted the battery system
is designed so that problems with the wiring cannot cause a fire.


He said that although the 787 uses more electric power, it uses correspondingly less hydraulics and less pneumatics.


That means less high-pressure fluid and less hot, high-pressure air moving around the aircraft in titanium ducts.


The total horsepower generated by the 787's engines in cruise flight
is actually less than on a conventionally powered aircraft, Sinnett
said, and as a result there's "less potential for something bad to
happen."
Et des pb de cablage trouvés sur les batteries APU d'avion d'United... mais qui ne peuvent selon Boeing pas être à l'origine d'un feu
A suivre... en tout cas les dégâts semblent assez limités non ?


_________________
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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Beochien le Mer 9 Jan 2013 - 9:59

Les vrais dégats ne sont pas vraiment matériels ...
Mais côté image, hum, du boulot pour les PR pour reconstruire l'aura ! pale
Et côté boursier aussi !
Même plus de cadeaux du WSJ ! Wink

pascal83
Whisky Quebec

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par pascal83 le Mer 9 Jan 2013 - 10:37

Salut, la fiabilité des 787 remise en cause pour le super dreamliner cela devient une vraie parodie, on ne peut pas dire qu'il a été bâclé, avec + de trois ans de retard:oops:. Les compagnies vont commencer à se facher.Twisted Evil J'attends de voir la réaction de la compagnie qatarie, elle devrait reporter à une date ultérieure les prochaines livraisons en attente de fiabilité.


Dernière édition par Admin le Mer 9 Jan 2013 - 13:26, édité 1 fois (Raison : mise en forme)

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mer 9 Jan 2013 - 17:23

Admin a écrit:Comme tu dis
Le ramp up de la prod à l'air de se passer pile poil comme il faut

Une description
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5654493/#19


Just to orient people who are seeing the 787's aft equipment bay for the first time...

The photo is taken from the RH side of the EE bay, looking left. Right in the photo is forward in the airplane and left is aft. Mr Bauer's left hand is resting on an opening which extends to a hatch which goes down through the WTB fairing and exits the airplane. When cargo is loaded in the aft pit, this is the only way into the aft equipment bay.

Adjacent Mr Bauer's right hand is the control unit for the electric wing ice protection system. Each slot in the box represents the electric control function for a symmetrical pair of ice protection zones on each wing.

Above the APU battery slot, where Mr Baur is inspecting, is the APU power panel. This manages all power from the APU.

Directly behind Mr Bauer is the oft-discussed P100 power panel. The P200 panel is directly behind the photographer.

By Mr Bauer's left shoulder is a liquid cooled equipment rack (often referred to as an "HVDC" (high-voltage direct current) rack). This rack contains the ATRUs (auto transformer/rectifier units) and large electric motor controllers, which are the heart of the 787's more-electric system's architecture. There is an identical rack at the right shoulder of the photographer.


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Beochien le Jeu 10 Jan 2013 - 1:59

Explosion d'une (Petite) batterie lithium, en labo, juste pour un laptop !
Vu par CM sur A.net !
Impressionnant !
A multiplier par 1000 ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pizFsY0yjss&feature=player_detailpage#t=28s

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Jeu 10 Jan 2013 - 9:12

Oui mais Boeing a blindé l'enveloppe
Et honnêtement quand on voit les photos de la baie électrique, on peut même se dire qu'il n'y a jamais eu de feu...
Pour moi cette histoire de batterie peut faire pshitt... Boeing a fait sérieusement ses dévoirs à la conception


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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Jeu 10 Jan 2013 - 9:15

Enfin je dis ça, puis ensuite je lis


People
familiar with the investigation, however, said high-level Federal
Aviation Administration officials are increasingly concerned about the
spate of electrical problems, highlighted by the smoldering battery
aboard the JAL jet, that have dogged the aircraft since its
introduction.

No additional mandatory safety fixes or
government-ordered inspections of Dreamliners are expected for at least
the next day or two, partly because FAA and NTSB experts still are
trying to determine the specific cause of the battery fire. But perhaps
as soon as early next week, according to one person familiar with the
matter, regulators may call for some type of review or reassessment of
design and manufacturing issues related to the Dreamliner's electrical
systems.




https://www.facebook.com/jonostrower/posts/148697175282177


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@avia.poncho

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Re: 787 Problèmes électriques

Message par Contenu sponsorisé Aujourd'hui à 5:05


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