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GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

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sevrien
Whisky Quebec

GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par sevrien le Jeu 12 Fév 2009 - 0:55

Le GEnx2, n'évoluera pas, il n'a pas de budget, ni de futur pour celà, même si c'est un dérivé du GEnx !

S'agissant du Bleed-Air,... il est vrai qu'on se demande quel serait le but, quelle serait l'utilité de faire évoluer ce moteur ! Surtout quand, de toutes façons, son application principle sera pour l'avion version -8F (freighter).
Mais le 787-3 motorisé dans les mêmes puissances n'est pas sorti !

Il va peut-être sortir, ... un jour ! Wink

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mer 7 Oct 2009 - 9:59

Bonjour à tous

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/GENX10069.xml&headline=GE Ships Revised 747-8 Engine For Tests&channel=comm




GE Ships Revised 747-8 Engine For Tests

Oct 6, 2009



By Guy Norris


General Electric is transporting a revised configuration GEnx-2B engine to Victorville, Calif., for final flight tests on the company’s 747 flying testbed as Boeing builds up toward first flight of the stretched 747-8.

The rebuilt engine features “a slightly different core grinding configuration” than the original -2B build standard tested during the first phase of flight tests this year, says GE. The revised configuration concerns the abradable seals in the core, which reduce leakage gaps between stationary and rotating parts to improve efficiency and stall margin. The revision is aimed at improving the stall margin, which testing showed was reduced in the earlier configuration. Unlike the revised core, the original version was optimized to deal with the bending distortion of the engine in the pitch axis.

Prior to shipment to Victorville, the engine completed 1,000 cycles in GE’s test facilities in Ohio. The engine’s departure was delayed by torrential rain in Ohio and, as a result the 747 testbed is not expected to begin flight tests until late October. GE adds that of the eight GEnx-2B engines delivered to Boeing for flight tests on the first pair of 747-8s, four are configured with the revised core grind design.

“The engines will not be swapped out. Instead, one flight test aircraft will use the four with the old configuration and another flight test aircraft will be powered with the engines with the tweaked configuration,” adds the engine maker. As engines are already installed on the first aircraft, RC501, GE confirms the revised configuration will fly on the second 747-8, RC521.

Most of the upcoming second flight test phase will focus on Boeing-related tests such as icing and will include flights with Boeing pilots who will operate the throttle controlling the GEnx-2B to get a feel for its responsiveness and characteristics before they fly the 747-8. In December, GE expects to attach an array of conformal microphones and pressure sensors to the 747 to help Boeing evaluate the predicted “buzz saw” fan noise from the front of the engine, and the acoustic shock cell from the primary and secondary exhausts. The tests, which will involve low-level flights down to 500 feet sealevel, in restricted airspace south of Catalina Island off the southern California coast, will be used to validate Boeing’s overall noise performance predictions for the 747-8, a critical design aspect for the new variant.

Boeing expects the 747-8 to be about 10 dB quieter than the 747-400, giving it a noise ‘footprint’ around 30% smaller. The reduction will come from the higher bypass ratio of the GEnx and from a one-piece, sound-absorbent acoustic inlet liner that will extend approximately 1foot into the forward fan case, larger noise absorption area and chevrons on both the hot-core-exhaust and fan-bypass nozzles.

Functional tests of all systems on the first 747-8 are underway at Boeing’s Everett site. Engineers are currently testing the flight control surfaces on RC501 and expect to exercise all the surfaces for the first time with a test pilot at the controls throughout this week.




Il s'agit d'amélioration sur les joints erodables entre la rotor et le stator, dans le but :
1) d'améliorer les marges vis à vis du décrochage du compresseur
2) augmenter les performances

LE RC501 fera les tests avec les moteurs originaux
LE RC502 dispose des moteurs améliorés.


Suivent des détails sur la campagne de test, et notamment acoustiques.


Une question : quelle est la durée de vie de ces joints périphériques ? quel effet sur la rétention d'efficacité.

Bonne journée


_________________
@avia.poncho

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 15 Déc 2009 - 8:46

Bonjour à tous


Peu de choses ont été dites ici sur le GenX

Pour commencer à combler le retard, pour la version 787

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=comm&id=news/W787engines.xml



Engine description:

Fan diameter: 111 in

Blades: 18

Bypass ratio: 9.6:1

Stages: fan, 4 low pressure (LP) compressor, 10 high pressure (HP) compressor, 2 HP turbine, 7 low pressure turbine.

Program update:

General Electric has taken delivery from Avio of Italy of the first improved low pressure turbine (LPT) for the upgraded GEnx-1B. The revised turbine is expected to bring the GEnx-1B 'in line' with Boeing's initial specific fuel consumption goals for the 787-8 and will be introduced shortly after the first GE-powered models enter service with the initial unmodified Block 4 configuration.

The PIP 1 (performance improvement package) is "a big improvement for the program, and is a huge undertaking," says GEnx program GM Tom Brisken. "It concerned redesigning about one-third of the whole engine, and it's a very important part because the efficiency of the component is about 1:1 relative to fuel burn. We just went too far on taking weight out and this is the only component of the engine that didn't perform to expectations. We learned that lesson," he adds.

The PIP 1 corrects a GE shortfall that, based on preliminary estimates early in 2008, was believed to be in the 2-3% range. The package includes a revised seven-stage turbine with updated aerodynamic design at each stage, as well as additional blades, vanes and nozzles to recapture losses discovered on the initial unit. Although heavier than the original component, weight growth is mitigated by the use of lighter titanium aluminide materials in the sixth and seventh stages of the turbine. "We changed every part in the system including the disks, seals and casing. But we just had to do it."

The new unit will be built up in January and begins pre-test in February, says Brisken. "Hopefully we'll be getting great results by March. In the meantime we have got all the production tooling released and we're targeting (FAR 33) certification by the end of 2010. First engine to test of PIP1 remains July, and is still on target. We will be also running a block test in the third quarter, 2010," he adds.

The Block 4 configuration engines for the initial 787 test aircraft, ZA005 and ZA006 are meanwhile back at GE where they have been receiving "additional tweaks and improvements" before being returned to Boeing. The first engines are due to be sent back to Everett in early January.

The Block 4 configuration is due to be certificated with an amended type certificate in April, or early May, and includes several improvements, most of which are aimed at durability enhancements rather than improved fuel burn. These include the enhanced twin-annular pre-swirl combustor and a revised cooling flow arrangement in the existing first stage high pressure turbine blades. "We have completed certification emissions testing which shows the eTAPS produces just 40% of the nitrous oxides (NOx) levels set by CAEP/6 rules. A lot of the focus is on carbon dioxide, but this good for NOx levels. NOx is nasty stuff," he adds.

Block 4 also includes an oil 'surface cooler' which is being developed with GE subsidiary Unisom, Goodrich and Boeing. Due to the delay to flight tests, the new cooler will now be available from the start of the 787 flight test program and will be more efficient than the conventional "box type" heat exchanger says Brisken. The revised design is mounted behind the fan blades and captures high energy air from the free air stream. It also diverts the more stagnant air at the mounting surface away from the cooler inlet. Heat from the oil system is rejected to this captured air. The unit saves 220-lb per shipset and is "in production and running fine" says Brisken


Bonne lecture également


_________________
@avia.poncho

Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Beochien le Mer 16 Juin 2010 - 14:47

Bonjour !

GE va (Enfin) obtenir ses certifications pour les GEnx 1B et 2B, 787 et 748, pratiquement ensemble !

De quoi peut être revisiter Airbus sur qq sujets +/- chauds !
Le A350 qui sait !
Je pense surtout aux A330, civils ou MRTT, voire le 340-500, on peut rêver !
Pour redonner un peu de vie à ces séries!
Et donner l'envie de travailler les tech insert à RR, qui visiblement n'avance que sous pression !

---------------- L'article d FlightGlobal, Extrait -----------

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/16/343337/ge-plans-mid-july-nod-for-genx-siblings.html

GE plans mid-July nod for GEnx siblings
By John Croft

General Electric is expecting near simultaneous regulatory certifications for its GEnx-1B and -2B engines in July, several months ahead of the planned certification and service entry for the Boeing 787 and 747-8.

Beyond the approvals, GE is gearing up to build 700 engines of the two types for 28 customers by the end of 2013 based on current backlog.

The two engines have a common core, with 10 high-pressure compressor (HPC) stages, lean-burn combustor and two high-pressure turbine (HPT) stages.

JPRS

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 22 Juin 2010 - 23:31

Bonsoir à tous,
Quelques news sur le GenX du 787
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/22/343525/boeing-787-test-effort-reaches-1000h-ge-to-deliver-2.html

Meanwhile, General Electric says that an upgrade planned for introduction next year will deliver a 2% fuel burn saving and bring the 787's GEnx-1B performance in line with, or ahead of, the original target.
The 1,000h point was passed on 16 June, as the first of two GEnx-powered Dreamliners joined the four Rolls-Royce Trent 1000-powered 787s engaged in the flight-test programme. Boeing estimates that it is "about 40% through the test conditions" required to certificate the initial variant of the all-new jetliner. The programme is expected to eventually accumulate 3,100 flight hours.

"More work remains, but we are seeing excellent progress in flight test," says Scott Fancher, vice-president and general manager of the 787 programme. "We are making solid progress on the ground testing required on the flight-test fleet as well," he adds.
GEnx general manager Tom Brisken says that the two-and-a-half-year programme delay allowed GE to reduce the shortfall in GEnx fuel burn from a reported 4% to "closer to 2%". This deficit will be addressed, and possibly beaten, with another upgrade package to be introduced in the third quarter of 2011.
Meanwhile, Brisken says that a full understanding of the airframe/engine performance and fuel burn of the GEnx-2B-powered Boeing 747-8 is about a "month or two" away. He declines to comment on suggestions from industry sources that the GEnx-2B is also 2-4% behind its fuel-burn target.


Bon alors
Pour le GenX1B : à priori +4% par rapport à la cible définie. -2% grace au retard et -2% grace à un package au T3 2011 de quoi être aux specs ou un peu mieux.
Pour le Genx2B : rumeur qu'il est à +2/+4% également. Non confirmé. A priori GE dit qu'il en saura plus dans 1 mois ou 2 mois en fonction de l'avancement du programme de test
Bonne soirée


_________________
@avia.poncho

Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Beochien le Mer 23 Juin 2010 - 0:50

Merci Poncho !

Art-Way l'avait déjà posté sur le 787 !
Et j'avais répondu celà !

Entre RR qui est parti 1 ou 2 points derrière ... et y est arrivé (Voire 1%+ ) dans le buzz Anet ..
Et GE qui semble trainer sérieusement de 2% (Je pensais moins, surtout en altitude, leur PB étant la montée)

Bien, comme d'hab, GE va pousser la chaudière en espérant qu'elle ne saute pas ...

Ben, c'est pas fini les commentaires ... et on comprends mieux au passage les doutes sur le 748, ceux des clients en particulier ... un peu annoncés d'ailleurs , pour le GEnx2, et son coup de l'entonnoir , en réduisant les diamètres !

Maintenir des BPR hauts, artificiellement, en réduisant les diamètres de fan, et en augmentant les pressions hors coeur, comme pour le GEnx2, ce n'est gagné pour personne, ni pour GE, ni pour RR, s'ils veulent "Arranger" le V2500 !
Et pour le LeapX non plus, sous l'aile (Peut être) du 737 !

Juste mon avis !

JPRS

Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Beochien le Mer 23 Juin 2010 - 11:37

Bonjour !

En complément, le release GE pour le premier vol du GEnx !
Noter qu'ils ont travaillé sur les chambres de combustion, et les fan tout composite !
Noter aussi l'aréopage de fournisseurs et associés au développement et à la production !
15% de SFC en moins qu'un CF6, semble t'il ... pour le 787 du moins !

-----------------------Extrait de GE Com ------------

http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/genx/genx_20100616.html


Based on the proven architecture of the GE90, the GEnx engine will succeed GE's CF6 engine. Compared to the CF6 engine, the GEnx-1B engine will offer 15 percent improved fuel efficiency, which translates to 15 percent less CO2. The engine achieves these improvements with aerodynamic advancements that enable higher pressures and improved energy extraction from a more compact core architecture that has significantly fewer parts.

The GEnx's innovative twin-annular pre-swirl, TAPS, combustor will dramatically reduce NOx gases as much as 60 percent below today's regulatory limits and other regulated gases as much as 90 percent. Based on the ratio of decibels to pounds of thrust, the GEnx will be the quietest engine GE has produced due to the large, more efficient fan blades that operate at a slower tip speed, resulting in about 30 percent lower noise levels. The GEnx will be the world's only jet engine with both a front fan case and fan blades made of carbon fiber composites.

IHI of Japan, Avio SpA. of Italy, Volvo Aero of Sweden, MTU of Germany, TechSpace Aero of Belgium, Snecma (SAFRAN Group) of France and Samsung Techwin of Korea are revenue-sharing participants in the GEnx program.

JPRS



Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Beochien le Mer 23 Juin 2010 - 20:01

Bonjour !

Le débat sur les perfs réelles, des moteurs du B787 n'est pas clos ...!
D'aprés A.net ils avaient 4% dans la vue, les 2 constructeurs, et ont dû les deux, foncer sur les tech insert d'urgence pour s'en sortir! (Prévus Mid Life, les radins ..Wink
RR y arriverait un an avant GE ! C'est bien, mais quasi 3 ans en retard quand même !
Mais tout cela pour une EIS du 787, heureusement en retard de 3 ans !

Cela donne à penser un peu, sur la fiabilité des promesses des motoristes en général !
Ils laissent toujours 4 ou 5 points à gagner à leurs ingénieurs ... au moment de déposer leur offre, et c'est parfois plus long et difficile que prévu à atteindre !

On espère que le A350, ne passera pas par ces angoisses, cette fois, avec son motoriste, RR !

Et on peut se poser qq questions concernant les diverses promesses de remotorisation des mono-couloirs, 15-16 % annoncés par P&W et CFMI , et RR qui promet autant, voir mieux sans rien avoir montré, ni essayé grand chose !

Perso, je pense que ceux qui ont volé, sont plus en avance que ceux qui sont au banc !
Et que ceux qui sont au banc terrestre, dans leur dimension définitive, sont plus en avance que ceux qui sont à l'échelle, avec encore beaucoup de techno sur les étagères ...

Il serait intéressant aussi de voire les Fans destinés aux monocouloirs, composites ou non, passer aux essais !

Sans parler des tenues sous l'aile, et autres conditions d'entretien ou toute conclusion l'anticipant, actuellement relève de la pure magie !
Et pour les poids futurs, c'est la même chose ... consulter Mme Soleil ... ou Sévrien !

QQ liens d'orientation pour les moteurs du 787 !

Sur A.net ... pas trés clair ...
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4847175/
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4847175/

Sur Flight global ... non plus, des perfs in line, avec quoi !
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/22/343525/boeing-787-test-effort-reaches-1000h-ge-to-deliver-2.html

Et le Seattle Times ou GE pense que le moteur n'apporte que 8 % !
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2012136338_bizboeing17.html

Et Sévrien, qui de son côté ... ne brille pas par sa clarté ... mais plutôt par ses imprécations de grand prêtre ... c'est édifiant !

Je cite les compliments !
Il y a fort à parier que ce genre d'article (il y en a d'autres) va faire délirer les agités et surexcités de service (d'ailleurs).

Ailleurs ... une idée des coupables, des hérétiques, des iconoclastes, j'ai cherché ailleurs pourtant ? Twisted Evil

Visiblement, de plus il faudrait lui expliquer comment fonctionne un "Cropped fan" et l'existence certaines différences de pression dans les tuyaux du flux froid, suivant les options retenues (On a vu cela il y a qq semaines) !
A lire quand même son blog ... pour essayer de bénéficier de ses "Lumières" comprenne qui pourra!
http://aeronewsline.forumactif.com/propulsion-f6/genx-t665-12.htm

En gros, GE est tombé dedans, et RR y échappe ... à l'axe de la pertinence peut être .... ou l'art de se foutre du monde en bashant les autres sites !
Et GE à du avancer son mid-life upgrade, et RR non ??? Tous les deux pour récupérer 4 points !
RR s'en sort un an plus tôt, bien d'accord et bravo RR, de plus leur Trent est plus avancé que le GE, c'est bien, mais loin du compte pour le A350, pour cela le T-XWB est complètement différent !

Allez bonne nuit !

JPRS

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mer 23 Juin 2010 - 20:47

Bonsoir Beochien

Ce que dit le Seattle Times c'est que finalement, sur le cas du 787 sur les 20% de gain par rapport au 767 8% de ces 20% sont dus au moteur... donc 40% environ.
Ca laisse encore pas mal pour la cellule Wink


_________________
@avia.poncho

Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Beochien le Mer 23 Juin 2010 - 21:03

Oui Poncho, et cela ne me paraît pas des plus exact ... mais si c'est une comparaison sur les premières itérations des moteurs ... bon, je l'ai mis un peu exprès !
Et entre SFC, et bilan d'un vol ...
Mais dans cette ambiance de n'importe quoi, je voulais le citer ..
De plus, le chiffre de 20% me paraît déjà exagéré !

Faudra voir les avions en exploitation commerciale pour avoir une idée ...
Tout le monde triche ! A commencer par les constructeurs suivis des motoristes ... pour vendre leur soupe !
Et les experts auto-proclamés aussi .... en dépréciant les autres posteurs, si c'est possible ... histoire de faire du bruit et du vent ... et de remplir leurs pages !

J'arrête là, je ne suis pas payé à la ligne, ni pour empêcher le Jeddih de s'ennuyer !
merci

JPRS

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mer 23 Juin 2010 - 22:39

Je crois même que tu n'es as payé du tout Wink


_________________
@avia.poncho

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Ven 23 Juil 2010 - 9:24

Bonjour à tous

Certification pour le GenX 2B...
Par la FAA

En attendant que la fiche de certif soit en ligne pour la version 2B, le lien pour la 1B

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/77a105d3d5ce2acb862574250061f9cb/$FILE/E00078NE.pdf


_________________
@avia.poncho

Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Beochien le Ven 23 Juil 2010 - 9:37

Bonjour !

Oui il y a cela sur Aweb, merci le Cousin (Quote) !
L'annonce GE !
Le GEnx2B

Et Le CF34-10A, profondément remanié, style CFM56 peut être, pas LeapX non plus ! Des gains de fiabilité ... côté Fan ???
Et pas d'infos sur les gains côté SFC, ils ne dansent pas sur la table les GE.... donc ???
Et je vais être méchant ... ils viennent de regagner une génération, moindre mal quand on en a 2 de retard !
J'aimerais voir un comparatif avec le Sam 146 !
Bon, on est hors sujet !
http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/genx/genx_20100722.html

JPRS

voodoo
Whisky Quebec

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par voodoo le Ven 23 Juil 2010 - 10:55

Sur quel moteur ont-ils deux générations de retard ? Sur le Sam146 ?
Le Tay ? Le RB282 ?

Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Beochien le Ven 23 Juil 2010 - 11:01

Salut Voodoo

On n'es plus sur le bon fil !

Je dirais que le CF34 était à 2 générations des CFM LeapX et P&W GTF ! (Et probablement le RB 282 quand on le verra!)

Il semblerait que la MAJ du CF34-10A ait été faite au niveau des CFM56 (De ce que dit GE) et Sam 146 ou autres Tay, mais je connais mal ce dernier!

JPRS

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Lun 26 Juil 2010 - 10:37

Bonjour,
Petit complément

Le lien vers la fiche certif (GenX1B et 2B regroupés)

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/6a8c43c366d9372d862577690064acf7/$FILE/E00078NE%20Rev%201.pdf

Il a perdu 600 lbs... ce qui le ramène à 12 222 lbs. (soit 1200 lbs de plus que le Trent700 nu pour fixer les choses, mais à priori moins que le PW4170)
Il tourne significativement que le 1B plus vite sur l'étage Fan (vive le coup de l'entonnoir) : N1 3026 contre 2726
N2 est en revanche identique

Il chauffe plus de 25°c que le 1B... alors soit c'est une amélioration en terme de designe soit c'est une perte de durabilité... si c'est la première... ça peut se retrouver dans le 1B Wink

Voilà voilà
Qu'en pense Airbus ?


_________________
@avia.poncho

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 17 Aoû 2010 - 10:36

Bonjour à tous

Je reviens sur cet article et plus particulièrement sur le surface oil cooler...

Quezako ?
Est-il déjà sur le GenX1 et 2 ?

A suivre

Au passage, tjs pas de premier vol du GenX1B ?

Admin a écrit:Bonjour à tous


Peu de choses ont été dites ici sur le GenX

Pour commencer à combler le retard, pour la version 787

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=comm&id=news/W787engines.xml



Engine description:

Fan diameter: 111 in

Blades: 18

Bypass ratio: 9.6:1

Stages: fan, 4 low pressure (LP) compressor, 10 high pressure (HP) compressor, 2 HP turbine, 7 low pressure turbine.

Program update:

General Electric has taken delivery from Avio of Italy of the first improved low pressure turbine (LPT) for the upgraded GEnx-1B. The revised turbine is expected to bring the GEnx-1B 'in line' with Boeing's initial specific fuel consumption goals for the 787-8 and will be introduced shortly after the first GE-powered models enter service with the initial unmodified Block 4 configuration.

The PIP 1 (performance improvement package) is "a big improvement for the program, and is a huge undertaking," says GEnx program GM Tom Brisken. "It concerned redesigning about one-third of the whole engine, and it's a very important part because the efficiency of the component is about 1:1 relative to fuel burn. We just went too far on taking weight out and this is the only component of the engine that didn't perform to expectations. We learned that lesson," he adds.

The PIP 1 corrects a GE shortfall that, based on preliminary estimates early in 2008, was believed to be in the 2-3% range. The package includes a revised seven-stage turbine with updated aerodynamic design at each stage, as well as additional blades, vanes and nozzles to recapture losses discovered on the initial unit. Although heavier than the original component, weight growth is mitigated by the use of lighter titanium aluminide materials in the sixth and seventh stages of the turbine. "We changed every part in the system including the disks, seals and casing. But we just had to do it."

The new unit will be built up in January and begins pre-test in February, says Brisken. "Hopefully we'll be getting great results by March. In the meantime we have got all the production tooling released and we're targeting (FAR 33) certification by the end of 2010. First engine to test of PIP1 remains July, and is still on target. We will be also running a block test in the third quarter, 2010," he adds.

The Block 4 configuration engines for the initial 787 test aircraft, ZA005 and ZA006 are meanwhile back at GE where they have been receiving "additional tweaks and improvements" before being returned to Boeing. The first engines are due to be sent back to Everett in early January.

The Block 4 configuration is due to be certificated with an amended type certificate in April, or early May, and includes several improvements, most of which are aimed at durability enhancements rather than improved fuel burn. These include the enhanced twin-annular pre-swirl combustor and a revised cooling flow arrangement in the existing first stage high pressure turbine blades. "We have completed certification emissions testing which shows the eTAPS produces just 40% of the nitrous oxides (NOx) levels set by CAEP/6 rules. A lot of the focus is on carbon dioxide, but this good for NOx levels. NOx is nasty stuff," he adds.

Block 4 also includes an oil 'surface cooler' which is being developed with GE subsidiary Unisom, Goodrich and Boeing. Due to the delay to flight tests, the new cooler will now be available from the start of the 787 flight test program and will be more efficient than the conventional "box type" heat exchanger says Brisken. The revised design is mounted behind the fan blades and captures high energy air from the free air stream. It also diverts the more stagnant air at the mounting surface away from the cooler inlet. Heat from the oil system is rejected to this captured air. The unit saves 220-lb per shipset and is "in production and running fine" says Brisken


Bonne lecture également


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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Ven 20 Aoû 2010 - 16:14

Bonjour à tous

Une petite recherche sur le Oil surface cooler

http://netcomposites.net/newspic.asp?5682



The GEnx-1b incorporates a new technology for oil cooling that uses a surface flow cooler on the outer flow path of the aft fan case. This cooling innovation requires tough, lightweight composite fairings, for which Tri-Mack manufactured six different injection-molded parts in extremely complex mold tooling on a very accelerated schedule.



Ce qui n'est pas grand chose

A priori c'est dans un échangeur Air/huile situé à l'arrière du fan dans la chemise

Bonne journée


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Beochien le Ven 20 Aoû 2010 - 20:11

Merci Poncho !

C'est très bien, économie de surface de radiateur ... on gagne du CX qq part !
Ecos de poids ... peut être si le circuit est simple ??
Par contre ou vont ils faire fondre les boules de neiges , si un jour il n'y a plus de FOHE du tout ?? confused
Des idées pour les futurs GTF, qui sait !

Et ... Ni un bleed bien chaud pour réchauffer tuyaux et radiateurs ??
Tout électrique ... y compris le réchauffage du fuel peut être ????

JPRS

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Ven 27 Aoû 2010 - 10:17

Bonjour

Pour tenter d'apporter qq réponses aux questionnements sur l'avancement du GenX comparativement au Trent qq éléments

a) les moteurs de série Trent1000 ne sont tjs pas livrés... c'est ce qu'on a appris suite à l'incident sur le Trent1000 au banc

b) pour GE : le GenX2B de série pour le 747-8 a été livré (l'avion de cargolux intégré aux essais et un avion de série

c) pour GE : le GenX1B : 40 moteurs prévus pour être livrés cette année.. Combien déjà livrés ?


http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/genx/genx_20100719.html


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/16/343337/ge-plans-mid-july-nod-for-genx-siblings.html

La livraison était prévue pour les RAM au tout début 2011... pas très longtemps après ANA donc
le GenX1B a été recertifié cet été avec les premières modif (équivalent au package A ou B chez RR ?)


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Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 18 Jan 2011 - 16:27

Bonjour à tous

Un article intéressant sur l'effet des derating sur la durée de vie du moteur

http://pilotlab.net/library-2/systems-performance/economic-impact-of-derated-.pdf

Appliqué au GenX

Où l'on voit qu'après un décollage "flex" un montée à la puissance maximale continue peut rapidement devenir plus stressante que le décollage (suivez mon regard du côté de qantas)
A lire si vous êtes intéressés



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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Beochien le Lun 14 Fév 2011 - 20:02

Bonjour !

Un peu de hype 748, c'est bien la journée du 748, non ??
Noter les relations GE/ Boeing ... un copinage impressionnant !

Bien, il y en a qui affutent leurs crayons chez GE, pour mettre les GEnx à jour de leurs spec's initiales, c'est bien, dommage que tout soit pour Boeing ! 787, et 748 !
Le GEnx, devrait progresser sur 18 mois, pas un mal d'ailleurs, et plus vite que Boeing ne corrigera ses overweight !

Bien pendant ce temps d'autres ont sorti la boite à outils et resserrent les boulons et doivent revoir les boites à roulements, avant de s'y remettre !
Ça viendra, juste un peu de patience (Je l'espère) !
Pas le droit d'être bien loin derrière, sur de nouveaux avions, à ce jeux ...

Vive les doubles motorisations, ça motive !
HouHou Airbus !

Et le A350, ne sera pas exempt de surcharge pondérale non plus !
Ce n'est pas fini les tweakings, et pas le droit à l'erreur, en plus !

------------------- Le lien et l'article FlightGlobal ------------

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/14/353150/boeing-and-ge-look-to-firm-third-genx-improvement-package.html

Boeing and GE look to firm third GEnx improvement package
By Jon Ostrower

Boeing and General Electric are looking to formalise a third performance improvement package (PIP) for the GEnx engine family to return the 747-8's fuel burn to its original target.

The move comes as GE advances on twin packages already in development on the Boeing 787 while further reducing nacelle drag.

"We're a little short," says Boeing airplane programmes vice-president Pat Shanahan of the 747-8's performance. "We're working with our friends at GE. They always appreciate my phone calls to say we need a little more."

The 747-8 PIP has no firm date for implementation, though preliminary development planning targets 2013, confirms GE Aviation chief David Joyce.

Joyce says the company is currently flight- and ground-testing a package of internal improvements to the GEnx-1B engine for the 787, portions of which will carry over to the 747-8's 289kN (65,000lb) GEnx-2B engine.

The GEnx-2B engine features a smaller fan and pneumatically driven start system, compared to the GEnx-1B's electric bleed-less architecture, though each contains a common core and 80% common line replaceable units.

While the exact fuel consumption shortfall or excess aircraft weight have not been publicly disclosed, Lufthansa executive vice-president group fleet management Nico Buchholz says the 747-8I will be able to meet the carrier's requirements.

"All the mission profiles we want, we can meet," says Buchholz. "And actually we have very onerous points where we look for mission profiles, sometimes routes we don't fly, but we pinpoint certain areas to find if there are any weaknesses, and then we are extremely pleased when we don't find them. And I'm still pleased."

Buchholz adds that the 747-8I's PIP will require no operational change to the aircraft "except we may save a little bit of fuel".

For the twin 787 PIPs already in the works, "we will put that in the engines as soon as we finish the validation of it and we're committed", says Joyce.

GE says PIP1, which includes a revised low pressure turbine (LPT), will be test flown on aircraft ZA005 mid-year. The revision increases the blade, vane and nozzle count after weight-saving reductions in these areas reduced performance. The GEnx-2B engine is already flying with the revised LPT, as programme delays allowed its incorporation.

PIP2, which features aerodynamic improvements to the high pressure compressor (HPC), has been in ground-testing since December and GE expects to flight-test the changes in the second half of 2011. Certification of these changes is likely in the first quarter of 2012, followed by entry into service in late 2012, says GE.

"We've committed to Boeing that we'll get on the fuel burn where we need to for the engine," says Joyce.

According to a 2008 Airbus assessment of the 787, the GEnx-1B is believed to have missed specific fuel consumption (SFC) targets by 2-3%.

In addition to PIP1 and PIP2, Joyce says GE will further evaluate "not only the specific fuel consumption of the [GEnx-1B] engines, but any drag polars around the engine that may have to be cleaned up as well".

Joyce says Boeing and GE will gather flight-test data to refine the installation of the 787's GE engine and focus on "where the interaction occurs between the engine and the wing, and also the outside nacelle area and how the flow lines of the nacelle interact with the engine".

"So we've got some work to do cleaning up the installation, performance, and we've got programmes already in play for the aerodynamic, thermodynamic performance inside the engine.

"And that'll just be something we do during the flight-test programme and that's a collaborative effort with Boeing, we both own that responsibility," adds Joyce.

JPRS

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mer 27 Juil 2011 - 9:51

Bonjour à tous
Des soucis pour le GenX qui va devoir passer par la planche à dessin
Cause : émission de 160 ml de fuel dans certaines conditions. Ce fuel n'est pas brulé, mais vaporisé par les parties chaudes du moteur
Mais c'est interdit...
Pb d'interprétation chez Ge
Solution à trouver pour fin 2012, avec rétrofit des moteurs en service en 2014
Pas de pb de sécurité

Ca a l'air anodin, mais à mon avis ça peut vite tourner au casse tête pour GE pour résoudre ce petit pb

Concerne GEnX1B et GenX2B

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/07/27/359989/faa-1973-rule-prompts-genx-design-change.html


The US Federal Aviation Administration is requiring General Electric to modify its GEnx-series engines by end-2012 to prevent fuel vapour leaks, in order to comply with a 1973 environmental regulation.
The ruling, published 25 July on the Federal Register, would affect all Boeing 787s powered by GEnx-1B engines and 747-8s, which are exclusively powered by the -2B model.
The leaks must be eliminated from all new-build GEnx engines by 31 December 2012 and in-service engines will require retrofit by 31 December 2014 in order to comply with the ruling.
According to the FAA, about .16l (5.5oz) of fuel from the GEnx is being released "intermittently under certain conditions" and is "vapourised on contact with hot surfaces inside the engine, resulting in the visible fuel vapours that have been observed when they emit from either the inlet or exit plane of the engine".
The 1973 rule, which the FAA called "short-sighted", prohibited a then common practice of dumping up to 3.8l (1gal) of raw fuel after engine shutdown, but the prohibition specifically sited "elimination of intentional discharge" prescribing specific intent of the operator.
While the FAA determined "no safety and minimal environmental effects are evident" after consultation with the Environmental Protection Agency, it said it remains "concerned about compliance with the intent of the current regulation" to prevent the intentional discharge of fuel.
Even though the rule does allow "normal fuel seepage from shaft seals, joints, and fittings", the GEnx fuel discharge is from none of the three allowed sources, thus creating a ambiguous interpretation and application of the regulation and as a result has prompted the requirement to modify the GEnx engines.
Boeing's 747-8 freighter is set to enter service before the end of September, with the passenger model to be delivered to a completion centre for outfitting in VIP configuration by the end of the year. Boeing has not identified a launch customer or timeline for the GEnx-1B's certification on the 787.


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Beochien le Mer 27 Juil 2011 - 10:32

Oui, 0,16 litres , hum, c'est nettement moins qu'une voiture pour 10 000 km !
Et la FAA, ils C les C aux pauvres GE pour ça !
Ils feraient mieux de s'occuper des PB sérieux, déjà qu'ils n'ont plus de budget !

Ca peut expliquer des petits échappements de fumée vu des moteurs du 787, sur les piste ??
Sauf que de mémoire ... c'étaient des RR que j'avais vu fumer un peu l' année dernière ...

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 16 Aoû 2011 - 16:30

Bonjour à tous

Les mises en service approchent, et donc les chiffres des SFC / cible initiale et les gains des PIP (Performance Improvement Package) commencent à sortir





Furthermore, the fuel efficiency of the General Electric (GE) GEnx-2B engines is likely to be improved over time as the Ohio-based engine-maker mulls to feature the performance improvement package (PIP) 1 and PIP 2 going to be retrofitted on early batches of GEnx-powered Boeing 787 Dreamliner onto its bigger sibling.

“During our testing, we noticed we needed to improve our SFC, and GE has plans in place to ensure we meet the SFC targets on both engine lines [the GEnx-1B on the 787 and GEnx-2B on the 747-8] through the PIP (performance improvement package) programmes,” General Electric Aircraft Engines (GEAE) spokeswoman Deborah Case acknowledged.

“GE Aviation is looking into a PIP programme for the GEnx-2B (which would be PIP 1 on the -2B), but it has not been finalised. The -1B PIP 1 provides a 1.4% improvement in SFC than the original configuration. PIP 2 will bring an additional 1.5% improvement in SFC,” Case conceded.

The PIP 1 and PIP 2 would deliver a combined 2.9% of reduction in the GEnx-1B engine’s specific fuel consumption (SFC) and bring the -1B engine, widely believed to have missed its original SFC target by 2%-3%, in line or slightly better than the SFC target originally envisioned.

“For PIP 1, we are nearing the end of ground testing and working on the FAA certification. GE has conducted flight tests on the engine and the results have been very position,” Case asserted.

“GE did ship engines in late May for flight testing. We anticipate the PIP 1 entering service early next year. PIP 2 on the GEnx-1B engine began testing in December 2010. We anticipate engine certification in June 2012 and entry into service in late 2012 or early 2013,” Case clarified.


http://www.aspireaviation.com/2011/08/15/lufthansa-reaffirms-service-entry-date-as-747-8-makes-progress/

Donc 2.9% de gain attendu pour le GenX1B en deux fois, dont la seconde phase sera en ligne fin 2012 début 2013...


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Re: GEnx "Bleedless" (B787) & GEnx "Bleed-Air" (B747-8)

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