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Pratt et Withney

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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Pratt et Withney

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mer 23 Sep - 4:43

Bonjour à tous

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=17953


Pratt plans closure of two Connecticut MRO facilities
Wednesday September 23, 2009
Pratt & Whitney has decided to close its Cheshire, Conn., MRO center and its Connecticut Airfoil Repair Operation facility in East Hartford, resulting in the loss of some 1,000 jobs and prompting a lawsuit from the International Assn. of Machinists and Aerospace Workers.

Pratt overhauls the PW2000, PW4000 and F117 at Cheshire and conducts component repair at CARO. It said it would save $53.8 million per year by closing the two facilities. CARO is scheduled to close in the 2010 second quarter, with Cheshire set to be shuttered in early 2011, a Pratt spokesperson confirmed to ATWOnline. Although the closures were not part of the major restructuring announced in March by Pratt parent United Technologies (ATWOnline, March 30), "now that the decision is made, this will fall under UTC's restructuring," the spokesperson said. "From the financial side, it falls under that."

The CARO work will move to Asia and the Cheshire work will transfer to Pratt's Columbus, Ga., facility and its Singapore-based joint venture with SIA Engineering. The engine-maker said current costs at Cheshire, which employs 800, are some 40% higher than in Georgia, while CARO costs are 40% more than at P&W's Japan center and 170% higher than in Singapore.

Pratt said it anticipated that Cheshire would suffer a 40% reduction in volume next year, including a 68% drop in work from US customers. Work at CARO is expected to fall at a similar rate.

"It is important to understand that this evaluation followed the company's ongoing efforts to make these businesses successful. . .and to preserve the work here in Connecticut," Pratt said. "In the years leading up to this evaluation, the company invested in these businesses to improve capability and capacity, implemented transformational continuous improvement initiatives, reduced overhead and explored numerous alternatives before turning to the meet and confer process" with IAM.

That process began July 24. Pratt said the union's final proposal would have resulted in $25.8 million in savings next year, along with further savings related to overtime and process improvement that were "not quantifiable." The state of Connecticut also offered incentives worth an additional $5 million over five years.

Yesterday afternoon, IAM filed suit in US District Court seeking an order blocking the closures and accusing Pratt of failing to make "every reasonable effort" to find a solution, the Associated Press reported. State Attorney General Richard Blumenthal called the company's negotiation a "charade."

In a statement provided to this website, Pratt said it had not yet been served with the complaint and insisted that it "followed the process outlined in the collective bargaining agreement, acted in good faith at all times and are confident that we will prevail in this matter."


by Brian Straus

Il s'agit bien de délocalisations

Bonne journée


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aubla
Whisky Quebec

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par aubla le Lun 30 Nov - 3:47

Une seconde source pour les moteurs GTF de P&W ?

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) est en négociation avec Pratt & Whitney pour assembler les P&W GTF pour le futur MRJ (au moins dans un premier temps).
MHI possède 64% de Mitsubishi Aircrafts, le développeur du MRJ.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/11/30/335582/mhi-in-talks-to-assemble-pw-gtf-engines.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Regional_Jet


bonne journée
Cordialement
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Dim 13 Déc - 17:44

Bonsoir,

PW parle du GTF

http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/archives/187988.asp




Pratt & Whitney talks Irkut, Comac, Boeing, Airbus


Developing PW1000G geared turbofan engines for Russia's MC-21 airliner will help make the case for a possible re-engining of Boeing and Airbus' single-aisle offerings, a Pratt & Whitney official said on Friday.

Irkut announced Thursday that the MC-21 (MS-21 not in Cyrillic) would use the PW1000G. The program includes variants that would carry up to 150, 181 and 212 passengers, larger than Bombardier and Mitsubishi programs that use the PW1000G.

"It now gives us an active program in the 30,000-pound thrust class," Bob Saia, Pratt & Whitney's vice president, Next Generation Product Family, noted in an interview Friday. "When you have a launched program, you put a different level of finesse or effort in that design because now it's a real product that you're designing. You take it out of the study and nice-to-do mode, and you now make it real."

Some reports have said rival CFM International pulled its LEAP-X engine out of consideration for the MC-21 because of concerns about the program's economic viability. Saia said several manufacturers, including CFM, remained engaged in the contest through August's narrowing of bidders, and he sees the program as having good prospects.

"We anticipate that the annual Russian passenger volume will increase about a percent greater than what the global growth will be as we look at out to the future, say 20 years or so," he said, adding that this works out to nearly 1,000 single-aisle jets needed just for Russia's domestic operations.

That's not a captive market, but a good Russian offering will have an edge, he said. "This airplane is going to be a very attractive airplane. It fits the domestic need. It has the ability for them to capture international sales."

Asked about media reports that China's Comac has chosen the LEAP-X engine to power its C919 150- to 200-seat jet, Saia did not acknowledge defeat.

"Comac has not made a formal announcement, so we're still very active there," he said, adding: "While every campaign is important, the Chinese market is important, so it's not just winning the first (contest). It's creating a relationship and presence and being there for multiple applications."

So what about Boeing and Airbus, which have acknowledged that they're considering re-engining their 737 and A320 families?

"We're talking to all the airplane manufacturers," Saia said. "(I)f Airbus or Boeing were to re-engine their product line with, say, for instance, geared turbofan, we can offer double-digit improvement in fuel consumption on both aircraft."

That kind of increase on an existing aircraft would be unprecedented, Saia said. The change also would cut maintenance costs, because it has about 1,500 fewer airfoils than current engines do, and bring double-digit reductions in noise (by decibels), allowing more service to noise-sensitive airports, he said.

Asked about reports that his new engines might not fit under the 737's relatively low-to-the-ground wing, Saia said: "We can make about the same benefit on both aircraft independent of what the height is between the wing and the ground."

Saia could not provide any insight into when Boeing or Airbus might decide whether to reengine.

"I guess like you guess," he said, noting that market conditions and fuel prices would play a big role.

"There's a lot of factors there," he said. "So our objective is listen, understand requirements and be ready if an opportunity comes."


Le MS21 est intéressant pour PW car il le positionne dans une classe de poussée équivalente et même supérieure à celles des monocouloirs Boeing et Airbus actuels.

Bonne soirée


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Beochien le Jeu 4 Mar - 10:57

Bonjour !

Pratt et Whitney appuie sur son GTF !
Jusqu'à 40 000 lb, ?? Bien, mais quand ??
Et pour l'instant il n'y à pas d'avions qui le nécessitent, à part feu le 757 ..
Alors ... les hypothèses du A320 200 Px + et twin aisle ??, ressurgissent, sauf que ce ne serait plus vraiment un A320 (Hou Hou les BE Airbus c'est quand qu'il sort celui là!)
Bon, un peu du pipeau Mktg, la guerre des mono couloirs est bien lançée et tous les effets d'annonce l'accompagnant vont affluer pendant 6 mois !
Noter une belle démo côté pièces d'usure, de quoi faire pâlir RR et Snecma ! (Et le reducteur ... non mentionné Ouaf!)
Bon, on ne va pas manquer de lecture cette année, mais savoir ou en sont les projets, c'est autre chose ... le papier ça coûte moins cher que les essais et les développements !
Au fait ou en est MTU (Silence radio), qui est (Etait) censé développer un coeur chaud moderne du GTF pour 2015-16... et le A 320 Ils sont au courant qu'il faut viser jusqu'à 40 000 lbs maintenant ?

Un peu de lecture sur flightglobal !

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/03/01/338925/gtf-able-to-power-twin-aisle-narrowbody-pratt-whitney.html

---------------
Yet, one of the reasons why Pratt & Whitney has "gone as high as
40,000lb of thrust is" that there are "airlines out there looking for a
light twin", P&W vice-president next generation product family Bob
Saia told ATI and Flightglobal last week during an exclusive interview
in Dallas, where the engine manufacturer held a customer forum to
exhibit some of its GTF hardware.
These airlines are interested in an aircraft with an "[Airbus]
A320, A321 seating capacity, so 170 to 220 seating capacity" that
offers a twin-aisle configuration, says Saia adding: "The reason for
the twin aisle was two-fold - cabin comfort, but another is can you
turn the aircraft around faster in terms of boarding and de-boarding."
It remains to be seen if airframers will pursue development of a
twin-aisle narrowbody.--------------
Nonetheless, Pratt & Whitney believes its GTF is well-positioned to play a role in any of these scenarios.
"No matter what the application is, even if it were a lightweight
twin-aisle, we believe the 40,000lb thrust regime would really cover
that," says Saia. "So if someone like Bombardier decides to go larger,
or if a re-engining happens, or if Boeing and Airbus really decide
'we're not going to re-engine, we're going to do a new centreline
aircraft and here's a new airplane' we can take all these requirements,
and make sure we are ready to leverage the value of the gear, and have
the demonstration to say, 'we know we're ready for this thrust regime'."
With a fuel burn improvement of 15%, the GTF offers "significant"
fuel cost benefits relative to a two shaft direct drive engine such as
a conventional turbofan like the CFM International CFM56, says Saia.
"In the case of an airplane like an A320
or 737-800, you're saving about $750,000 per aircraft per year if you
look at a CFM56 relative to our geared engine. So if you have a fleet
like Southwest of [nearly] 600 aircraft, that's a significant amount of
money," he claims.
Saia further alleges that the maintenance benefit could represent
hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of additional savings per
aircraft per year. "Relative to the CFM56-5B, the GTF has four less
life-limited disks and 1,500 less airfoils. The cost of these disks are
approximately $100,000," he says.
"Relative to the CFM International Leap X, the GTF advantage grows.
The GTF has seven less life-limited disks and a minimum of 1,500 less
airfoils. The cost of these disks represent a savings of $20 or more
per engine flight hour. These life-limited parts plus lower airfoils
will enable the PW1000G to have a greater than 20% engine maintenance
cost advantage over the CFMI offering."
A further 2% to 3% reduction in airline operating costs can be
realised by European airlines that face airport noise fees. And
additional savings from the GTF will be realised when airlines in
Europe are forced to pay penalties for CO2 emissions, says the Pratt
& Whitney executive.---------
JPRS
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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Beochien le Lun 12 Avr - 21:17

Quelques précisions sur les aubes du fan du GTF ...
Des options ouvertes pour QQ mois encore !
Un hybride, métal - Plastoc, semble avoir la préférence, à la pure résine, c'est prudent !
On suppose que c'est pour Bombardier, pour les A320 et 737, P&W à encore un peu d temps !

------------- Extrait --------------

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/03/31/340187/pw-close-to-deciding-on-gtf-fan-blade-material.html

P&W close to deciding on GTF fan blade material
By John Croft

Pratt & Whitney says it will decide by the third quarter whether to use traditional hollow titanium fan blades or a newly developed hybrid metallic design for its new geared turbofan (GTF) engine.

"We're leaning toward the hybrid metallic blade," Paul Adams, senior vice president of engineering for the Connecticut-based United Technologies subsidiary, tells ATI and Flightglobal.

Along with P&W's internal work on the hybrid metallic blade, which Adams describes as a "metallic structure associated with a composite structure", the company also investigated with its sister company Hamilton Sundstrand a resin transfer molding (RTM) composite design, similar to what GE uses on the GE90 series engines for widebody aircraft and for its new Leap-X1C narrowbody engine, selected by Comac for the C919.

However, Adams says engineers have ruled out the RTM option in part because the hybrid metallic design is "more efficient" due to its thinner leading edges and other features, including better foreign object debris (FOD) resistance.

To date, Adams says P&W has completed 95% of the development work required to make the blade decision, with the fall-back position being traditional titanium fan blades.

If the company goes forward with a hybrid metallic design, Adams says the blade could be used on other engines as well.

Elsewhere on the GTF, P&W is planning to use titanium blisks for the "front half" of the high pressure compressor of the engine, and nickel construction for the back half.

Adams says the turbine blades will also be made of conventional materials, allowing maintenance shops to service the engines with existing processes and materials.

Selected for three platforms to date, the PW1000G engines are designed to deliver fuel burn savings on the order of 16% compared to the CFM56-5B and 20% lower maintenance costs for the life of the engine

JPRS !
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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Beochien le Mar 13 Avr - 14:53

Bonjour !

Un article bien fait (Du 2-4) de : GLG experts sur le P&W 1000, le GTF !
En conclusion, la remotorisation des 757, serait possible ! (Pourquoi pas, on peut rêver si P&W paye le dvlpt!)
Noter, leur avis sur les RB 282-285, (Confirmé par Sévrien) est prêt et seulement a la recherche de l'opportunité !

http://www.glgroup.com/News/The-GTF-Will-Succeed---with-or-without-Rolls-Royce-is-the-question-47547.html

The GTF Will Succeed - with or without Rolls Royce is the question

----------------- Extrait la 2nd moitié ! --------------------

Airbus has an established customer base using IAE for service, and would prefer that the IAE partnership remain in place for any re-engining program. Behind the scenes, Airbus is leaning on both PW and RR to come to agreement regarding technology and production arrangements. But should these fail, PW is likely ready to stand alone as a strong contender for the 737 and A320 re-engining programs that will be announced later this year.

The interesting element of the geared turbofan is that the gear rations can be changed, and that with higher ratios, higher bypass and fuel efficiency can be achieved without a corresponding decrease in reliability. PW has achieved proprietary breakthroughs that should enable this engine to provide increased performance as its evolves - potentially improving performance from 15% to over 20% in fuel economy over today's engines, and better performance than new technology competitors from CFM and Rolls Royce. PW will introduce the 1000G with both a strong improvement in fuel economy (15%) as well as maintenance (20%) over today's engines. With both the Leap-X and RR alternatives derived from today's models, they will not achieve the level of maintenance cost reduction of the PW1000G. Overall, the economics of the PW engine are quite compelling, as they will substantially reduce cost for airlines - and in today's airline environment, every penny counts.

The PW1000G core can be scaled up to 40,000 pounds of thrust -- enough to re-engine the Boeing 757 and provide that program with substantial fuel savings. A strong potential market exists, with more than 900 of these aircraft in service, should PW choose to support a re-engining program. We believe such a program would be more successful than the Cammacorp DC-8-60 series re-engining in the early 1980s, and potentially add years to the life of the Boeing 757 series.

PW will take the next steps in testing the PW1000G engine this summer, and development is on currently schedule and on budget. While success can never be guaranteed, the fundamentals look sound. Time is running out for Rolls Royce to decide on whether to support the GTF through IAE, or watch PW independently capture a significant share of the narrow body propulsion market.

-----------------

JPRS
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 13 Avr - 17:07

Bonsoir Beochien,

Bien vu que Sevrien indique que c'est prêt chez RR ( )
Pas vu aussi formellement dans ce papier.
En outre, question le RB285 a t'il fait l'objet d'un démonstrateur suspendu sous l'aile d'un avion ?

Effectivement, PW dispose peut être de la capacité d'ajuster "facilement" un moteur à un avion en jouant sur le taux de réduction du réducteur.
Cela permet en outre de jouer assez facilement le diamètre de la soufflante en conservant des vitesses optimales pour celle ci quel que soit son diamètre.

La boite de transfert d'un super stallion encaisse plus de 12 000 cv sans parler de celle du Mi28 qui doit plafonner à 22000 cv
Je pense également que le réducteur est une solution à faible risque.
Un des risque se situe au niveau de la certif, mais si Honeywell l'a déjà fait certifier sur un avion de ligne, il est peut être finalement plus faible que celui de la cerfication d'un nouvel ensemble soufflante / carter de soufflante en materiaux NG

Je serais preneur des résultats de la campagne sur l'Airbus

NB : pour rappel, en Unducted Fan, PW avait déjà choisi et fait tourner un version avec boite de réduction

Bonne soirée


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Paul
Whisky Quebec

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Paul le Mar 13 Avr - 22:10

Beochien a écrit:Bonjour !

Un article bien fait (Du 2-4) de : GLG experts sur le P&W 1000, le GTF !

JPRS

Bonjour Beochien et également à tous,

Quelle crédibilité peut-on accorder à un groupe, en l'occurence GLG, dont les analyses ne sont pas signées ? De plus, ça ressemble étrangement au style de Fleetbuzz...

Bonne nuit


Dernière édition par Paul le Mar 13 Avr - 22:11, édité 1 fois (Raison : Correction)
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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Beochien le Mer 14 Avr - 4:21

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Paul
Whisky Quebec

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Paul le Mer 14 Avr - 10:19

Merci
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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Beochien le Mer 12 Mai - 6:19

Bonjour !

Enorme article ! Trés récent, qq jours max
7 pages de PDF, origine P&W (Autopub) sur le GTF Purepower !
Origine, et Avenir !
Ils ont l'air sûrs d'eux, et mettent le paquet sur le GTF!
Et ça aussi c'est nouveau !

Comparaisons avec la concurrence !
Position avec Bombardier, Airbus, Boeing, et les autres !
Rolls Royce et L'IAE .... pas content, pas raisonnables , pas prêts,c'est tout !
Entretien, le réducteur devrait tenir ! c'est bien, on verra!
Philsophie pour aller jusqu'à 100 000 lb
Evaluation des futures motorisation aussi !
Noter qu'ils pensent pouvoir suivre pour les NG futurs, et sabrent les "Unducted" pour la fiabilité !
Etc ....

J'ajoute !
Bon, si P&W arrive à reconquérir ses positions perdues, avec son GTF, je ne vois pas qui pourrait le lui reprocher !
Business is Business !
Les clients de lancement , ben ils sont là pour lancer, ils bénéficient souvent de conditions excellentes que les Airframers suivants ne reverront pas forcément !
Morale ou pas de morale ... à lancer Bombardier il y à 2 ans et les ceuillir 3-4 ans aprés avec les 320-737 ...
C'est le Business ! Et les P&W semblent avoir de bonnes cartes, ils auraient tort de ne pas en profiter !

TRES INTERESSANT !
Les réponses à toutes les questions !
Et de nombreux points que nous avons bien anticipés ici ! (Mieux qu'ailleurs en tout cas)
A lire


Note ... si qq'un sait faire le copier-collé sur un PDF ! je n'y arrive pas !

---------------- Le lien -----------------

http://purepowerengine.com/pdf/GearingUpfortheGTF_ATEM_April-May_2010.pdf

Bonne lecture!
JPRS


Dernière édition par Beochien le Mer 12 Mai - 7:44, édité 1 fois (Raison : XX ajouts !)
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aubla
Whisky Quebec

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par aubla le Mer 12 Mai - 9:22

Bonjour,

devant l'intérêt de ce document, je me suis lancé dans le copier-coller

bonne lecture
Cordialement

Gearing Up for the GTF

Pratt & Whitney’s new PurePower PW1000G geared turbofan has already been chosen for three
new narrowbody programmes. Speculation is growing that the GTF could feature on a re-engined
A320 or 737, and even on a future widebody. Chris Kjelgaard looks at its prospects.


There’s little question that Pratt & Whitney’s new PurePower PW1000G family of geared turbofan engines represents a remarkable technological achievement and many pundits are touting its potential as a major contender in tomorrow’s narrowbody propulsion market.
The PW1000G has already been chosen topower the Bombardier CSeries, Mitsubishi MRJ and Irkut MC-21 narrowbodies, and — as
rumours proliferate that Bombardier intends to stretch the CSeries into a 150-seat design — analysts see the PW1000G as a strong candidate to power any re-engined A320 or 737 that Airbus or Boeing might respectively offer.
However, few observers have noted that the geared turbofan (GTF) concept is already highly proven in the civil aviation market — albeit
in the form of engines rather less powerful than Pratt & Whitney’s new offering. As do all GTFs, these engines employ planetary gearboxes
— driven by the low-pressure spool — to de-couple the low-pressure turbine (and low-pressure compressor) from the fan.
This allows both the fan and the low-pressure spool to revolve at their optimal rates — fast for the low-pressure spool,
quite slowly for the fan.

Geared turbofans already in service
Both the LF502/LF507 and the TFE731 engine families (now made by Honeywell, but originally developed by Avco Lycoming and
Garrett respectively) are geared turbofans that have clocked up many millions of hours of flight time — and new versions of the TFE731 in particular continue to sell well, according to Bill Storey, founder and president of aerospace research firm Teal Group. While the LF502 suffered serious reliability problems — which led to the development of the LF507 — these weren’t to do with its geared fan, says Storey,
and the GTF concept has proved reliable in service.
So why all the fuss about the PW1000G?
The answer is that it’s a much bigger, more powerful GTF than any previously designed.
Storey says that where Pratt & Whitney (P&W) has made a breakthrough in bringing to market a new GTF family is in managing “to get the
weight of the gearbox down to a scale where it makes the concept viable” for large-aircraft applications. P&W duly patented this new gearbox technology, “so competitors can’t jump on it,” he notes.

The PW1000G’s fan and core

In pursuing the narrowbody propulsion market, P&W chose to develop a GTF rather than a more conventional turbofan because it believed
its GTF design could offer the best “value proposition” in two ways, says Paul Adams, P&W’s senior vice president of engineering.
First, because the PW1000G’s fan rotates 30 per cent more slowly than that of a conventional turbofan, P&W could make the engine’s
18-blade fan diameter very large without running into the blade-tip shockwave problems that destroy a conventional engine’s efficiency
above about 80 per cent of maximum thrust.
The large fan diameter allows a much higher bypass ratio than would be possible with a conventional turbofan, increasing the PW1000G’s
propulsive efficiency. The slower-turning fan also minimises the chances of blade damage from bird ingestion, since most ingestion damage is caused by the speed at which the fan is turning, not the speed at which the bird is flying.
In developing the PW1000G, P&W also designed in a new, very durable core — based on a core it developed with MTU, one of P&W’s partners in A320 supplier International Aero Engines — optimised for the high-cycle narrowbody operating environment. Because the lowpressure spool in the GTF can run at its optimal speed without effecting the propulsive efficiency of the fan, P&W was able to remove several low-pressure turbine (LPT) stages: The PW1000G has three, rather than the six orseven normally needed. Similarly, P&W could do away with two low-pressure compressor (LPC) stages, using three in the PW1000G rather than the conventional five.
Dropping five or six LPC/LPT stages produced an engine with less than 50 per cent of the low-pressure stages in a conventional turbofan,
and 1,500 fewer blades, says Adams. At the same time, P&W introduced into the PW1000G a new eight-stage high pressure compressor, each stage of which is a singlepiece, integrally bladed rotor (or “blisk”).
The PW1000G’s core also has an advanced combustor based on P&W’s lowemissions TALON-X design. This features a “floatwall” of inner-lining panels — which can expand and contract independently, reducing lining wear — as well as a rich-quench-lean combustion cycle to prevent nitrogen oxides forming. Behind the combustor, P&W has employed new turbine cooling technologies, including advanced thermal-barrier coatings, powder-metal blade alloys, new cooling-airpath geometries within blades, and turbinecasing active clearance control.
“We do think we have the most advanced combination [of cooling technologies],” says Adams. “And we think we have the most durable blades, in combination with [operating] temperatures more conservative than the competition.
The PW1000G will run at lower temperatures than we think the competitors are going to run at.”

Other key technologies
Two other technologies are important in the PW1000G, says Adams. One is the composition of the engine’s fan blades, still largely secret. Adams says the PW1000G has “a hybrid metallic fan blade” that P&W has developed over the past two years. “It is actually lighter and higher-efficiency than a composite fan blade” the same size would be, he claims.
“We think we have got a concept that meets all structural criteria and is significantly better than a composite fan blade. We have done fullscale, full-speed birdshots and we’re in extremely good shape. We don’t see any significant risks with the fan blade.”
Another key technology is the PW1000G’s gearbox. P&W expects the gearbox, which is made of high-strength gear steels, to be “very
low-maintenance”, says Adams. “We’re expecting the gear will be less than two per cent of the maintenance cost of the product. It’s designed to be full-life without any additional maintenance outside normal maintenance periods.”
Combining “a very efficient core designed specifically for the high-cyclic narrowbody market” with the propulsive efficiency created by
the PW1000G’s large fan and its high-strength gearbox will create “a step change” which will provide “the best value proposition” for the
market, he says.
That market includes aircraft “up to the A321 or the large-737 class”. P&W has already run demonstrator GTF engines at 30,000lbf, is developing a 30,000lbf PW1000G for the Irkut MC-21 — with a 12:1 bypass ratio, like the CSeries powerplant — and Adams says P&W
sees the PW1000G’s competitors as being engines offering “more than 30,000lb”.
The company has been running a full PW1000G core since late 2009, and reportedly has scheduled the first CSeries engine to run in August and the first MRJ engine in October.
With the CSeries expected to enter service in 2013, P&W will bring the PW1000G to market significantly before 2016, when CFM has said
its LEAP-X will be ready for its first application, China’s COMAC C919 mainline narrowbody.

The PW1000G’s market and its competition
This could help P&W in winning a position on a re-engined 737 — and a re-engined A320.
“Whether or not it proves to be a competitive advantage, it gives [P&W] good reason to think they have a head start on the single-aisle war,” says Storey. “They may even stumble in by the back door if Bombardier builds a 150-seater.”
Bombardier might well do so, he thinks: “There has always been a gulf from the regional jets into the single-aisle widebodies [such as the
A320 and 737]. The CSeries might be a spanner between the two, if they were to stretch it.”
CFM International’s new LEAP-X engine is P&W’s most obvious medium-term competition.
“LEAP-X has been by far the most vocal in there,” says Adams. But he believes CFM is trading away some of the vaunted maintainability
of its existing CFM56 engine family to meet customers’ fuel-efficiency demands for a reengined A320 or 737.
LEAP-X is “more like a widebody engine”, claims Adams. “The interesting thing here is, in order to compete with the GTF product, the
LEAP architecture has had to change significantly from the CFM56 architecture to a widebody architecture,” optimised for fuel-efficiency
and low-cycle operation rather than high cycles and durability. “We think the competition has had to compromise maintenance cost,
he says.
Meanwhile, Adams thinks that the open rotor’s noise, installation and blade-containment challenges, along with the need to provide
a variable pitch mechanism for each of its two contra-rotating blade rows, will rule out an open-rotor design in the medium term.
“Variable pitch is 10 times less reliable than a gearbox,” he says. “And square that” for two rows of blades.

Phased improvements
Some have pointed to the apparent gap between the 12 per cent fuel-efficiency improvement P&W is promising from 2013 with the PW1000G and the 15-16 per cent benefit CFM says it can offer from 2016 — and the 30 per cent improvement Rolls-Royce is claiming from 2018-2020 with an open rotor. However, Adams says that, “apples to apples,” all three engine manufacturers are essentially talking about the same levels of benefit being available at the same dates.
P&W’s initial 12 per cent benefit with the PW1000G is only a starting point, he explains.
In developing the new engine, P&W has adopted a programme to introduce “technological injection” packages at phased intervals to
keep the programme “fresh”, both for new-build engines and upgrades to in-service PW1000Gs: “We think we get to the same number at the same point in time” as the other manufacturers.
Generally, “turbomachinery [efficiency] improves at 0.75-1 per cent a year” through manufacturers’ continuing research, says Adams. “The reason we stepped to the geared turbofan was that we saw we were actually getting nearer to the limit ... with traditional concepts.
We had to work harder and harder to get the improvements. The GTF-style architecture allows us to continue that rate” more easily.
“In 10 years the geared turbofan can be 7.5- 10 per cent better than it is now. We think that for at least the next 15 years we can continue to run that out at the historic trend or better.”

Will the 737 or the A320 use the PW1000G?
If a re-engined A320 or 737 appears, it will be important to P&W to be on it, Storey believes. P&W was the sole provider for the first generation of 737s with the JT8D, but subsequently “Pratt & Whitney played themselves out the game and they’re keen to get back in, in a big way, and to be at least one of the engines on the Airbus or Boeing plane. It would mean a lot for [P&W’s] bottom line.”
The PW1000G’s large fan size - the diameter of the CSeries fan is 73in, compared with the CFM56-7B’s 61in, the IAE V.2500A5’s 63.5in and the CFM56-5B’s 68.3in — will create challenges if it is chosen to re-engine the 737. “It certainly fits pretty easily with the A320, even now,” says Storey. “At the time the A320 was designed [Airbus] probably anticipated larger and larger engines” being used.
But the same isn’t true for the 737, whose design started life some 20 years earlier.However, Storey says senior P&W executives
have assured him the PW1000G could fit under a 737 wing. “I think the possible road to that is a somewhat lengthened nose gear,” says Storey. “It’s probably not feasible to lengthen the main gear on the 737 — you might as well redesign the plane.” He declines comment on how much longer the 737’s nose gear would need to be. But reports suggest that, assuming the nacelle design was flattened like that of the CFM56-7B, a four-inch nose gear extension would produce about a two-inch clearance for a PW1000G.

IAE and the PW1000G
A320 re-engining presents a different problem: P&W is, along with Rolls-Royce, one of the two largest partners in IAE, which has won more than a 50 per cent market share on the A320 family with the V2500. Airbus has stressed it wants any P&W path to market on a re-engined A320 to be through IAE.
Asked for comment, IAE responds: “We intend to offer an engine solution that meets our customer’s needs and we’re in ongoing discussions
with Airbus and our shareholders to determine the right approach to meet those needs. We are considering all available technology options and will offer the best solution once Airbus has clearly defined the aircraft’s requirements.”
Presenting P&W’s view, Adams says: “We both clearly state we like IAE and it’s a good channel to market, and we continue to work with Rolls-Royce to see if there’s a resolution to the problem. There are some philosophical differences and we’re not sure where it will come
out.” He confirms “we have done studies with both airframers” and notes “a 737 approach wouldn’t necessarily have to be through IAE”.
What this means, says Storey, is that “Rolls- Royce obviously hasn’t jumped on the bandwagon.
It’s always been a triple-spool proponent and possibly also of an open rotor. I can’t see Rolls-Royce coming out [for an A320/737 re-engining] with its own 25,000-30,000lb engine ... so I would think [Rolls-Royce’s presence] would be either through IAE or nothing.
That would lead me to believe Pratt & Whitney thinks it is bringing the most to the table and would want a bigger share” of a new GTF-based IAE engine for the A320 than the 32.5 per cent it now has on the V2500.
Ultimately, says Storey: “I think both Boeing and Airbus are going to prefer two engine options, and if they’re not both open rotors, I think they will be the LEAP-X and P&W. It seems Rolls-Royce is the one not in lockstep.” While Boeing might not be actively favouring two engine options, “if the LEAP-X doesn’t deliver as advertised and Airbus has options with both the LEAP-X and the geared turbofan, Boeing would be at a disadvantage. My assumption now is that both manufacturers will offer two engines, and they’ll be the same two engines”.

The GTF as a widebody engine
Adams confirms Embraer is also considering the PW1000G in its “studies of what its next product would be like”. But even more interesting is Adams confirmation that “the overall concept of the geared turbofan is scalable up to pretty much any size”, including a potential 100,000lb-thrust engine for a 777- 300ER replacement — or perhaps for the A350XWB-1000.

“We would architect a widebody product differently to the narrowbody product,” says Adams. “For long missions, we would make some design trades that advantaged fuel burn versus high-cycle maintainability, consistent with low-cycle operations. The disk design would trade weight for cycle life. We would run the engine hotter, with higher operating ratios.
The cooling technology would be different: the design margin in the turbine disks, how much cooling air, what kind of cooling.”
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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Beochien le Mer 12 Mai - 11:44

Meci Aubla !
Et comment on fait ... le copié collé sur PDF ?? Embarassed
Ca y est ... enfin vu !
JPRS
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Lun 17 Mai - 4:28

Bonjour

Merci Aubla
Merci Beochien

J'avais épuisé ma lecture de la MRO pour les nuls Wink

Pour les pdf

2 solutions :
a) sélection du texte et simple copier coller comme dans word
b) utilisation de l'outil "instantanné" (le petit appareil photo) pour faire une copie d'écran d'ou bout sélectionné (un joli graphe par exemple) à enreigstrer sous format jpg sur sa machine et à importer dans le forum via l'outils décrit dans le quizz

Bonne journée


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Beochien le Lun 31 Mai - 15:51

Salut Poncho !

Un peu de lecture ... et qq idées des HP en jeux au passage , et des pressions du flux froid !

A suivre le GTF pour les nuls !

Trés bien expliqué par MTU !
Didactique, mais de 2008 ou par là !

On attends RR et GE/Snecma pour qu'ils nous expliquent aussi bien, ce qu'ils avancent ... today!

C'est PDF, je n'ouvre pas, 10 pages à lire !

http://www.mtu.de/en/technologies/engineering_news/others/Riegler_Geared_turbofan_technology.pdf

bonne lecture !

JPRS
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Lun 31 Mai - 17:27

Salut Beochien

Tu peux en faire une copie sous le fil dédié au GTF...
J'imagine que le message d'Aubla y a aussi toute sa place !

En attendant, de la lecture !
Miam


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Beochien le Lun 31 Mai - 17:44

Mouais ... faire comme Sévrien et en lancer sur XX colonnes ... bof !
suis pas payé à la ligne moi ! lol! merci
C'est bon, je le fais ! Wink
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Lun 31 Mai - 18:30

Moi non plus

Merci


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Beochien le Ven 2 Juil - 9:29

Bonjour!

Pratt et Whitney veut mieux asseoir sa présence en Chine et offre des participations aux fabs du GTF !
Un 2nd moteur pour le Comac dans la ligne de mire ???
Ou peut être plus petit, ARJ 21 ??

En tout cas ils ne veulent pas rester à contempler !

---------------- L'article de Hartford Business --------------------

http://www.hartfordbusiness.com/news13779.html?Type=search

Pratt covets China jet-engine venture

06/29/10

East Hartford jet-engine designer Pratt & Whitney is in talks with China's largest aircraft maker about a possible joint venture to assemble its state-of-the-art passenger jet engine on the mainland, Pratt officials confirm.

According to China's Global Times, Pratt CEO David P. Hess says the joint venture would produce components for Pratt's PurePower1000G engine. Pratt has invested $1 billion to build and test the PurePower, billed as the next generation of fuel-efficient and quiet jetliner motor.

Global Times quoted Hess as saying Pratt wants to reenter the Chinese market through the joint venture. In 2009, the firm failed in participation of the C919 project, China's first home-grown large commercial airliner, the newspaper said on its Web site.

Hess personally made a sales call to China, the paper said, to recommend the PW1000G engine to the Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China, the major maker of C919.

In a statement Tuesday to HBJ Today, Pratt repeated its commitment to the Chinese aircraft market, where it has joint venture facilities in Shanghai, Beijing, Chengdu, Zhuzhou and Xi'an. Hess said the joint venture envisions serving the global jet-engine market as well.

"China is an important market to P&W, and our portfolio of services and presence are expanding in a number of ways,'' Pratt said.

JPRS
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aubla
Whisky Quebec

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par aubla le Mar 31 Aoû - 5:18

Bonjour,

Pratt & Withney annonce la fin de l'assemblage du premier PW1500 GTF,
il s'agit de la version du PW1000 qui doit équiper le CSérie de Bombardier.

Les essais sur banc en vue de la certification vont pouvoir commencer.
Premiers essais en vol prévus pour 2012 pour une entrée en service en 2013.
à suivre . . .

http://www.aerocontact.com/actualite_aeronautique_spatiale/ac-l-assemblage-du-premier-pw1500g-est-acheve~10636.html


Bonne journée
Cordialement
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Ven 3 Sep - 12:59

Bonjour à tous
Réflexion sur l'industrialisation du GTF sous ses différentes formes.
Nécessité d'une nouvelle usine
Anticipation d'une demande assez forte pour la famille du PW1200G qui pourrait être bien accueillie sur des dérivés des CRJ et des Ejets...
La perspective des remotorisations

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/02/346908/pw-looks-to-avoid-gtf-industrial-headaches.html

Extrait



With an eye to programmes yet announced by Airbus, Boeing, Embraer and Gulfstream, Pratt & Whitney faces a looming decision on its industrial footprint and how to meet the demand for future applications of its next-generation product family.

The engine maker late in August reached an important milestone when it completed assembly of the first of eight test engines for the initial variant of its PW1000G geared turbofan, the 24,000lb-thrust (107kN) PW1524G version that will power Bombardier's CSeries twinjet.

This is due to begin testing before the end of the year, which is also the target P&W has set itself to select the site for assembly of the PW1217G version that will power Mitsubishi's MRJ regional jet, the 70- to 90-seat aircraft that is due to debut in 2014. However, the facility has grown in scope beyond assembly of the 17,000lb-thrust powerplant.

P&W is producing the PW1524G test engines at its Middletown, Connecticut facility. Production engines for the CSeries, which is due for service entry in 2013, will either be partially or fully assembled at the company's new Mirabel, Quebec facility.

Pratt & Whitney PW1524G, Pratt & Whitney/Rick Koehler
© Pratt & Whitney/Rick Koehler

"We're looking at what we do with the re-engining opportunities that we have from Boeing and Airbus, and you think of a potential Embraer application, and then you've got the corporate [aircraft] applications, you sit back and you say 'we can't just build in Connecticut and Mirabel'," says Bob Saia P&W vice-president, next-generation product family.

During its initial ramp-up between 2013 and 2016, Saia believes 400 PW1000G engines will be delivered. This tally reflects the three platforms from Mitsubishi, Bombardier and Irkut with its MS-21, for which P&W's geared architecture has been selected to power.

"There just isn't enough capacity," he says of the two facilities in Mirabel and Connecticut that will assemble the PW1524G and some PW800 engines (a non-geared engine that shares the PW1000G series core).

Those facilities are sized to handle 500-600 engines a year at peak output, he adds. "So the question is 'what makes sense?' Good location as well as a greenfield layout so you can really get productivity and value out of the operation."

Saia says the company has options for two or three sites across North America, Europe and Asia for the assembly site.

Pratt & Whitney PW1524G, Pratt & Whitney/Rick Koehler
© Pratt & Whitney/Rick Koehler

While the new facility was initially intended to host production of the PW1217G for the MRJ, Saia says the prospect of additional applications for the smaller GTF engine are fast approaching, prompting P&W to increase the scope of its production infrastructure.

"We believe there will be more than one commercial jet application for an MRJ engine," says Saia. He believes the engine could find an additional applications on a "next-generation CRJ or next-generation Embraer product".

Pacing P&W's decision is the fact that Airbus, Boeing and Embraer intend to decide on future narrowbody products by the end of the year. The airframers generally have three options, with deliberations centring on re-engining their existing aircraft with next-generation powerplants, opting for clean-sheet design, or doing nothing.

Saia believes Airbus in particular will launch a re-engined A320 this year, although while he says the preferred method for offering a geared engine for the Airbus line continues to be through P&W's International Aero Engines partnership with Rolls-Royce, he says of the relationship "we have different technologies with different scopes, so when you start to go down that journey and it gets to a point where it's hard to bring them back together".

The relationship between the two engine makers was strained again in August, when R-R accused P&W of patent infringement on the design of the fan blades of the PW1000G and Engine Alliance GP7200 that powers the Airbus A380.

Although this suggests a growing rift between the two IAE partners, Saia says the prospect of partnering R-R on a powerplant for the A320 "New Engine Option" is "not dead", but adds that "the further you travel, the harder it is to return". The stakeholders are still talking to one another, but fundamental differences on architecture, and the investment already made by P&W, remain potentially irreconcilable differences, he says.

While it has not confirmed its final decision, a P&W or IAE option on the A320 is likely to be pitted against a CFM Leap-X design.



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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Beochien le Sam 4 Sep - 8:43

Bonjour !

La déclaration du patron de UT (P&W) Louis Chênevert !
Concerne le 320 NEO,et qq comments sur RR !

P&W y vont et y croient pour le A320 NEO
Bien, RR ne croit pas à la techno !
P&W, voulait faire payer cher sa techno, dans l'alliance (Houlà, mes sous ! a du dire RR) !

"Until the last minute we'll be happy to
have discussions," he said. But Rolls would "have to pay a big entry fee"
because of Pratt's investment in the engine.


La porte reste ouverte, mais c'est limite pour le timing !

Pour le brevet RR, du fan! C'est downplay, pour l'impact, une vieille affaire de 1999, pas trop de craintes de retombées, pour le GTF (Pour l'instant seul Bombardier semblerait concerné pour les GTF ??)

------------ Une com du Nasdaq --------------

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-news-story.aspx?storyid=201009011055dowjonesdjonline000461&title=united-tech-ceoconfident-airbus-will-re-engine-a320

United Tech CEO: Confident Airbus Will Re-Engine A320

By Doug Cameron, Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
The head of United Technologies Inc. (UTX) said he believed Airbus (ABI.YY)
would opt to re-engine its best-selling A320 aircraft, a move that could benefit
the U.S. company's Pratt & Whitney unit.
Louis Chenevert, chairman and chief executive, also criticized engine partner
Rolls-Royce Group PLC (RYCEY, RR.LN) for its stance on the new geared turbofan
powerplant, or engine, although he said the U.K. company was still welcome to
join the program.
Airbus and Boeing Co. (BA) are both examining putting new engines and other
improvements on their narrowbody aircraft to boost efficiency and fill a gap
until an all-new plane can be developed sometime before 2030.
Chenevert said Wednesday at a Morgan Stanley industry conference that he was
confident Airbus would announce plans before year's end to re-engine the A320.
Airbus officials have said they would make a decision before the end of the
year.
Boeing executives have guided against re-engining the 737, and Chief Financial
Officer James Bell said on the first day of the conference Tuesday that the
limited benefits of upgrading its existing plane with new powerplants was not
something customers wanted.
Pratt & Whitney is marketing its new PW1000G engine to Airbus to revamp the
A320. The aircraft is also being used to power the new CSeries from Bombardier
Inc. (BDRBF, BBD.B.T) and the MRJ regional jet being developed by Mitsubishi
Heavy Industries (7011.TO) and its partner, Toyota Motor Corp. (TM, 7203.TO).
United Technologies has been forced to market the new engine alone as Rolls-
Royce--its partner in the International Aero Engines joint venture--has been
critical of the technology.
Relations with the U.K. company were further soured when Rolls filed a lawsuit
against Pratt last week claiming patent infringement over a part on the PW1000G.
Chenevert said the lawsuit is without merit, and said Rolls was running out of
time to join in the PW1000G project. "Until the last minute we'll be happy to
have discussions," he said. But Rolls would "have to pay a big entry fee"
because of Pratt's investment in the engine.
Bombardier doesn't anticipate any impact on its CSeries program from Rolls-
Royce's patent infringement lawsuit against Pratt & Whitney, Aerospace President
Guy Hachey said during a post-earnings conference call Wednesday.
"This is a longstanding dispute that originated in 1999 before the CSeries
engine was designed," he said. "We have strong contractual language from a
financial perspective that we will not be impacted."
Both engine makers are suppliers to Bombardier.

JPRS
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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Beochien le Sam 4 Sep - 10:12

Bonjour !

Et comme on voit dans d'autres articles, que P&W, au cas ou il prenne des cdes sérieuses, chez les Russes pour le MS 21, et chez Airbus pour le A320 NEO, ...
Je disais, P&W n'a pas la moindre idée de où il pourra fabriquer 5-600 GTF "Grand modèle" par an ... Mirabel n'est pas désigné pour produire à cette hauteur !

On peut quand même se demander si le cadre de l'IAE, ne lui conviendrait pas ... pour fabriquer vers 2015, ce n'est plus très loin !

Rachat des facilités au groupe IAE ou un accord RR de dernière minute qui sait !
Je le sens un peu en pointillé dans les déclarations, savent pas ou les faire leurs moteurs, s'ils reçoivent une cde Airbus !!

J'ajoute, c'est passé sur FG il y a qq jours : Le lien !
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/02/346908/pw-looks-to-avoid-gtf-industrial-headaches.html

JPRS
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Jeu 9 Sep - 5:28

Bonjour à tous

Quelques retour de l'entretien de D. Hess à Reuters

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68751P20100908



Airbus has indicated it is leaning toward putting a new engine in the current design of its A320. Boeing has said its customers seem to favor a new plane, which would take longer to produce but could deliver better fuel efficiency, which is prized by the cash-strapped airline industry.
"It's conceivable they both could go different ways," Pratt President David Hess told the Reuters Aerospace and Defense Summit in Washington on Wednesday.
Billions of dollars in orders hinge on the decisions by Airbus and Boeing. The two largest commercial aircraft manufacturers have said they will announce their decisions this year.
Still, Hess said Pratt, a unit of United Technologies Corp (UTX.N), was continuing to develop next-generation engines that offer improved fuel efficiency.
"Sooner or later they are going to decide to do something, and we think we'll be ready and will continue to be in the lead with the best-technology engine that's out there," Hess said.
Pratt & Whitney partners with Rolls-Royce (RR.L) as part of a consortium supplying engines to Airbus single-aisle jets, known as International Aero Engines.
IAE competes on Airbus jets with another transatlantic consortium, CFM International, which is co-owned by General Electric (GE.N) and France's Safran (SAF.PA).
CFM has a monopoly on comparable Boeing planes.
IAE has however been hit by a split over engine strategy, with Rolls-Royce deciding to skip the re-engining project and get to work directly on the next generation of engines, which it believes could be more lucrative.
Hess said he hoped Germany's MTU Aero Engines (MTXGn.DE) and Japan's Aero Engines would join Pratt in to the re-engining project, leaving Rolls-Royce isolated over engine strategy.
Hess said he was disappointed at the surprisingly low number of orders for Bombardier's C-Series aircraft for which Pratt provides the engine.
Orders for the aircraft, which competes with Boeing's 737 and the A320 in the 100- to 149-seat segment, so far have failed to live up to expectations, totaling only about 90.
Bombardier blamed a lack of orders for the plane at the Farnborough Air Show in July on issues related to a support plan for the engine. At the Reuters summit, Hess shrugged off the complaint, calling it a "misunderstanding."
He said he expects more C-Series orders to be announced soon.
"I think they are important orders," Hess said.
Hess said Pratt expected its aftermarket business, or sales tied to retrofits and upgrades, to rise this year and beyond as air traffic and cargo demand picks up.
"We continue to see the recovery both in terms of leading indicators and ... to some degree reflected in some of our order streams too," Hess said.
Still, he added that Pratt, which had revenue of $12.6 billion last year, could undertake more head count reductions and consolidate operations to keep up profitability as defense spending growth slows.


1) Les stratégies de Boeing et airbus peuvent diverger... notamment compte tenu des attentes de leur client respectifs
2) PW cherche à aller sur l'A320 avec MTU et Japan Aeroengines...
3) Il annonce des commandes importantes pour le CSeries et importantes (en quantité ou en qualité ?)

A suivre


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art_way
Whisky Charlie

Re: Pratt et Withney

Message par art_way le Lun 27 Sep - 12:06

United Technologies : plainte déposée contre Rolls-Royce.

Pratt & Whitney, qui appartient au groupe United Technologies, annonce avoir porté plainte aujourd'hui devant un tribunal du Connecticut à l'encontre de son concurrent Rolls-Royce.

Pratt & Whitney explique que cette décision fait suite à une plainte déposée au mois d'août par Rolls-Royce, ce dernier accusant la filiale d'UTC de violation d'un brevet sur des lames de compresseur.

'L'opinion de Pratt & Whitney est que Rolls-Royce s'est comporté de façon trompeuse afin d'obtenir du bureau américain des brevets (United States Patent & Trademark Office) un brevet qu'il prétend que Pratt & Whitney enfreint', explique George Romanik, le conseil juridique de Pratt & Whitney.

http://www.boursorama.com/infos/actualites/detail_actu_societes.phtml?num=807147aa85f19b051c75550384b5d10e

C'est parti pour une guerre des procès.....on se renvoi la balle...


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Re: Pratt et Withney

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