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A321 et 737-900ER

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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

A321 et 737-900ER

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Ven 2 Oct 2009 - 9:57

Bonjour petit rappel sur les forces en présence A321/737-900ER




Approximativement hein (+/- 150 Nm pour la lecture des courbes à l'écran)

Néanmoins, par rapport à certaines brochures boeing lue aujourd'hui l'écart entre le 737-900Er et l'A321-200 n'est évidemment pas monumental. La force de l'A321 est de continuer à voler loins même chargé. Gain essentiellement sur le MTOW.
La charge utile max de l'A321 est de 17% de plus que celle du 737-900ER.

Pour info une copie de la présentation de Boeing



Et si il vole moins loin avec une charge réduite (correspondant à un config typique 2 classes par exemple) il va plus loin avec le plein de pax haute densité et qq babioles en soute.

Donc A321 plus à l'aise sur des missions à fortes charges et 737-900ER très à l'aise sur des missions à charge "moyenne"


Intéressant ?

Maintenant à voir ce que donneront toutes les améliorations sur la famille

Dont les moteurs, l'aero, la cellule et le poids...



Ainsi qu'un lien un peu ancien mais instructif


http://www.seattlepi.com/business/109811_boeing24.shtml

Bonne journée


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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: A321 et 737-900ER

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Ven 6 Mai 2011 - 11:19

Bonjour à tous

Je reviens vers ce fil avec cette petite analyse
Le 737-900ER semble enfin décoller....

http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/making-a-silk-purse-out-of-a-sows-ear-the-737-900er/
Un petit long extrait


In addition to the additional exits and range, Randy Tinseth, VP-marketing, wrote upon the launch of the -900ER programme, that, “Several improvements to the wings and flap systems and optional blended winglets and auxiliary fuel tanks allow the 737-900ER to have a range of 3,200 nautical miles (5,900 km). So, for dual-class operators, while they weren’t going past 189 passengers, they now have an extra amount of range.”

Sales continued to be slow, with Boeing initially promoting the -900ER as a replacement for the Boeing 757.

In another one of his blog columns, Tinseth wrote, “One of [Airbus'] recent marketing thrusts has been around “sharklets” for the A320 family, and along with that what I find interesting is that Airbus is positioning the A321 as a potential replacement for the 757.

“Why is that interesting? Because the best possible 757 replacement already exists — the 737-900ER.”

At the same time, Boeing acknowledged that the -900ER fell short of the 757, an aircraft that with winglets is capable of trans-Atlantic routes. At the roll-out of the first Boeing Sky Interior installed on a customer’s airplane, John Hamilton, an engineer on the 737 program, acknowledged that the -900ER can only do about 80% of the missions of the more capable 757-but he argued that this is enough, at least for now.

In recent times, Boeing’s messaging changed from being a 757 replacement – which the aircraft never truly was – to emphasize up-gauging and lower cost per available seat mile (CASM).

Jeff Knittel, president of CIT Aerospace, is the first lessor to buy the -900ER, and gave this perspective to CAO in an interview:

“A couple of things happened to transform the potential for the -900ER. Customers are up-gauging to drive lower-cost available seat miles. The -900ER improved with the current PIP (Product Improvement Program, in which Boeing and CFM provided another 2% better fuel consumption). Along with a generally improving economy, the 757 is beginning to come near the end of its life.”

The -900ER cost per available seat mile compares favorably to the 757 and Knittel noted that the -900ER is common to the more popular -800, while the 757 is a different fleet type for 737 operators.

“The 757 excels at the edge of its operating performance but the -900ER fits better in scheduled operations of 180 seats.”

Ron Baur agrees. He is VP of Fleet for United Continental Holdings, and the head of fleet acquisition at Continental Airlines prior to the merger and he was responsible for ordering the -900 standard and -900ER.

Continental operates the 757-200 and the 757-300. The -900ER has lower CASM and fuel burn per seat than the much larger 757-300 (as well as the 757-200) on route of 1,000 to 1,500 miles. Part of this is the cost of ownership, Baur admits, but he, like Knittle, says that 757 has superior performance at the edge of its operating range. Less than this, the 757 is simply carrying a lot of its excess capability around. The 737-900 is lighter and capital cost was less.

Indeed, according to information filed with the US Department of Transportation, compiled by the consultancy AirInsight for this article, the hourly cost of a 737-900 operated by Continental Airlines is actually about $250 per hour less than a 737-800 and nearly $1,300 per hour less than a 757-200 at the same carrier. Continental’s 757-300 costs just $7 per hour more than the 757-200, according to the DOT figures.

Alaska Airlines is the only other US carrier operating the 737-900. While Continental operates both the standard and the -ER, and doesn’t break out the costs in the DOT filings, Alaska’s fleet is currently only the standard. It recently ordered the -900ER, with first delivery in 2013. Alaska’s costs are about $600 higher per hour for the -900 vs. the -800.

Andrew Harrison, vice president of planning and revenue management, said Alaska uses the -900 on mid-continental routes such as Seattle-Dallas and Seattle-Minneapolis and Seattle-Alaska because of range limitations. The -900ER will have winglets and an auxiliary fuel tank, which will allow trans-con service from Seattle-Boston and Newark, Seattle-Miami with some seasonal restrictions and Seattle-Honolulu/Kona, also with some seasonal restrictions of perhaps 10 passengers.

Harrison says industry capacity reductions have driven load factors from the 60% range in 1995 to lower 80%.

“If you can fill the larger airplane, you good cost per available seat mile,” Harrison says. Alaska’s -900 standard CASM costs are up to 8% lower than the -800 and up to 20% lower than the 737-700.

Continental’s Baur acknowledged the -900 standard has its limitations; it can go as far as Newark to Salt Lake City but not to the West Coast, nor from Los Angeles to Hawaii. But the aircraft works well between Newark and Florida, for example, where extra capacity over the 737-800 is needed but not the range. Baur says Continental’s scheduling department segregates the -900 standard on routes like these.

“The -900 [standard] was essentially an elongated -800 without increased weight,” Baur says. The -900ER has the range to go US trans-con and West Coast-Hawaii, providing more flexibility.

Boeing hasn’t previously pushed sales of the -900ER, says Knittle and others with knowledge of the situation. “I think they were focused on the -800 because the aircraft worked well and the -900 [standard] was short on range. It was an iterative aircraft . But the drive on seat mile costs has heightened in the last year.”

Baur says people “are very comfortable” with the -800. “We value range. For us it was obvious the airplane had the range.”

A big US 737-800 operator, American Airlines, has yet to be sold on the -900ER.

“The 737-900ER is an interesting aircraft,” says Jay Hancock, managing director of fleet transactions. “We continue to evaluate it along with other future alternatives. We certainly are not at the point where we can make any decisions at this time. We not only have to consider the mission of any new aircraft in itself, but also consider other factors such as what our overall network will look like in the future, as well as how other aircraft types that will be in our fleet will impact the need for another version of the 737 beyond our current 737-800s.”

With Boeing’s sales team now pushing the -900ER more than in the past, additional sales are expected this year.

Voilà voilà

Le -900 à oublier
Le -900ER commence à se faire un place au soleil compte tenu de la reprise, de l'indispo de 757 en neuf.

L'A321 Neo qui n'a pas été "avancé" laisse un peu de place pour ce Boeing




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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: A321 et 737-900ER

Message par Beochien le Ven 6 Mai 2011 - 11:44

Merci Poncho !

C'est vrai, un petit boost pour le 900ER, qui restera bien en retrait du futur A321 NEO, malgré ses "Accessoires" comme des réservoirs suplt , il restera un peu juste pour les missions extrêmes ! TATL et INTERCON toute l'année !

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: A321 et 737-900ER

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Jeu 23 Juin 2011 - 15:04

Bon un petit exercice

Attention sur le graph c'est le 737-900Er à prior sans WL
Sources :données ACAPS airbus et boeing remises en forme

Pour les A321 Sharlets : j'ai pris un gain croissant de 3.2 à 4% selon la longueur (centré sur 3.7% pour la charge typique)
Pour les A321 Neo, par rapport au classique j'ai pris 12 à 15 % de gain (et 14% pour la charge typique)



Il faudrait que je fasse l'exercice avec le 757 pour voir où se situera l'A321NEO et éventuellement ce qu'il peut lui manquer

A priori avec une config 160 places "long courrier" avec une belle classe biz la distance franchissable va être de l'ordre de 3600 Nm


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: A321 et 737-900ER

Message par Beochien le Jeu 23 Juin 2011 - 16:04

Boeing !
Ils viennent de commencer à alléger leue737, à tavers un programme de développements !!!
Ca n'a pas traîné ! bounce

---------------- De ATW, Le lien, l'article -------------

http://atwonline.com/eco-aviation/news/american-737-800-conduct-ecodemonstrator-test-flights-2012-0622
American 737-800 to conduct 'ecoDemonstrator' test flights in 2012

By Geoffrey Thomas | June 23, 2011

Boeing
and American Airlines announced a partnership at the Paris Air Show
Wednesday to bring an "evolutionary ecoDemonstrator program" to reality
next year.
A 737-800 will be used to flight test and "accelerate the market readiness of emerging technologies," the companies said (ATW Daily News, Aug. 10, 2010).
The AA 737-800 and a twin-aisle plane to be identified later this year
will serve as the flight test component for US FAA's Continuous Lower
Energy Emissions Noise (CLEEN) program first announced at ATW's 2010 Eco-Aviation conference (ATW Daily News, June 25, 2010).
Boeing and an AA engineering team are finalizing plans for installing
the initial technology applications aboard the 737-800. Installed on the
aircraft, which will conduct the test flights in 2012, will be
adaptable trailing edge technology that reduces noise and emissions
during all phases of flight including takeoff, cruise and landing.
Another onboard technology will be the variable area fan nozzle, which
reduces community noise and enables advanced engine efficiency
technologies. Boeing will include regenerative fuel cells for onboard
power.

JPRS

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: A321 et 737-900ER

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Jeu 23 Juin 2011 - 16:17

C'est un démonstrateur ...

Le Variable Nozzle Area et les bords d'attaques adaptatifs ça nécessite quand même probablement une architecture de commande vol très intégrées non ?

Sans compter que le 737NG reste classique tu côté des commandes de vol, comment intégrer une logique de bord d'attaque adaptatifs dans le 737NG tel qu'il est ?


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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: A321 et 737-900ER

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 12 Juil 2011 - 22:15



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aubla
Whisky Quebec

Re: A321 et 737-900ER

Message par aubla le Mer 13 Juil 2011 - 7:21

Bonjour,

La conclusion est publique,
mais le rapport est payant :

Our conclusion: the A321neo is the better 757 replacement.
The 8 page report may be purchased here for $49.

bonne journée
aubla

Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: A321 et 737-900ER

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mer 13 Juil 2011 - 8:44

Merci Aubla,

ce n'est pas la conclusion qui m'intéresse ;


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Paul
Whisky Quebec

Re: A321 et 737-900ER

Message par Paul le Jeu 14 Juil 2011 - 0:18


Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: A321 et 737-900ER

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mar 6 Sep 2011 - 12:23

Bonjour à tous

Un petit doublon

Un 737-900ER actuel est limité par la taille de ses réservoirs au delà de 3200 Nm environ (CU 15.5 t environ)
Un A321-200 actuel est limité par la taille de ses réservoirs au delà de 2500 Nm environ (CU 22-23 t environ)

Le challenge pour airbus est de trouver de la place pour le fioul dans les stuctures, à priori sans augmenter le MTOW nécessairement
Le challenge pour le 737-9MAX sera l'augmentation du MTOW et de la poussée de moteurs. Le 737-900ER rend plus de 8t au décollage à masse maxi

Je me demande qui aura le plus de boulot Wink


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Re: A321 et 737-900ER

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