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Fokker F-70 et F-100

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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mer 10 Mar 2010 - 7:34

Bonjour à tous

Quelques mouvements autour des F-70 et F-100 dont il est envisagé une version NG...

Plus de compléments ici :

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/2010/03/fokker-to-re-join-the-battle-f.html



Just in case you were worried that there weren't enough 70-100-seat commercial aircraft being offered in the next decade, a newly funded and resurrected Fokker Aircraft is hoping to join the fray with a next generation F-100 and F-70.


Just so we're clear, a next gen 100-seat Fokker - dubbed the XF100 NG - would compete along side the currently operating Embraer E-190/ 195 and Bombardier CRJ900/ 1000, and lesser utilized Airbus A318 and Boeing 737-600, and by 2015 would have the CS100, Mitsubishi MRJ90/100 and Sukhoi Superjet 100 to compete with. This market is not hurting for new entrants.


That being said, the €20m ($27m) loan from the Dutch economics ministry would enable NG Aircraft to take the F-100 prototype ( PH-MKH), now stored in Woensdrecht in The Netherlands, and add new engines, new continuous isobar winglets, add range and fuel capacity and a new interior with IFE and LCD lighting for an assembly completion by 2015. An XF70 NG would presumably follow later.


By the look of the renderings on the company's website, the XF-100NG appears to be sporting a BR725 engine like that of the Gulfstream G650, though a powerplant choice isn't stated. NG Aircraft appears to have an interesting view of the marketplace moving forward, but there will be a stiff headwind for development against multiple clean sheet designs, but that's not to say I'm not extremely intrigued by this concept. Let's see how this one plays out.


From a business perspective, those chasing the dream of resurrecting the F-100 and F-70, might actually have a case to make. Airlines love clean sheet designs for all the goodies (and added efficiency) they bring to the table. However, NG Aircraft is looking at an already established design, making their investment more an incremental evolution of existing technology. They believe that their winglets will provide a 2% improvement in fuel burn, but give no indication of the efficiency with the new engines. Yet, the real savings to NG might come from manufacturing costs which the company believes can be reduced by 20% with high-speed milling, castings, extrusions and an overall reduction in parts. Could NG regain market share on discount pricing alone?


Le segment est en passe de devenir surpeuplé !
Au menu :
- winglets
- nouveaux moteurs (BR725 du G650 ?)
- nouvel intérieur

Et surtout grosses économies au niveau de la fabrication avec l'implémentation de nouvelles techniques...

Quelques liens :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_F100

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_F100

http://www.rekkof.nl/

Voilà voilà... d'autant plus que ce type de design avec les moteurs à l'arrière s'accomode moins difficilement d'augmentation du diamètre des moteurs Wink

A lire donc

Bonne journée


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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mer 10 Mar 2010 - 15:54

Rebonjour

Quelques petits compléments :

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/03/10/339286/fokker-100-revival-team-claims-interest-in-retrofit.html

A) Retrofit envisagé
B) Une échéance : 2015 (gros embouteillage à prévoir...)

Bonne soirée


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Paul
Whisky Quebec

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Paul le Jeu 11 Mar 2010 - 1:56

Bonsoir,

Ils veulent intégrer un nouveau moteur, accroitre la capacité de carburant et des winglets, rien que ça, avec seulement 20 M d'euros. Wow!!! De plus côté motorisation, on parle du BR725, surement un bon moteur, mais comparé avec le GTF et le CF34NG, pas sur.
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Jeu 11 Mar 2010 - 8:11

Bonjour Paul...

A ce prix là ça ne coute rien d'essayer... Wink
A ce que j'ai compris l'idée est de faire du low cost... et dans ce cas, ce qui rentre en ligne de compte reste le coût d'acquisition...

Par contre je crois que Mexicana rappellait récemment la surconso entre le F-100 et les E-jet
Il faut que je retrouve l'article

Bonne journée


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Paul
Whisky Quebec

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Paul le Jeu 11 Mar 2010 - 13:06

Bonjour,

Ce que je veux dire, c'est qu'ils vont optimiser un vieux modèle, dont la conception remonte à 40 ans, au gout du jour avec seulement 20 millions d'euros. Bombardier a dépenser 300 millions pour développer le CRJ1000, à partir du CRJ900.
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Jeu 11 Mar 2010 - 13:22

Rebonjour Paul,

Effectivement le rapport est important... même si le CRJ est quand même un stretch.
A la relecture, le prêt de 20 millions n'est qu'une première étape...

A suivre

Bonne journée


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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Jeu 11 Mar 2010 - 21:56

Bonsoir à tous
Une petite video




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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Mer 7 Avr 2010 - 21:27

Bonsoir à tous


NG Aircraft, the reincarnated Rekkof Restart that is bidding to return the Fokker 70/100 family to production, aims to decide where to locate the assembly line by year-end once the programme gets the green light in June.
The pacing item for the launch is approval from Brussels of a €20 million ($27 million) Dutch government loan, which is expected in June and should be "a formality", says NG executive Maarten Van Eeghen. Once cleared, NG will reveal the identity of the Fokker twinjet's new powerplant and set about preparing for the production programme, he adds.
Phase one of the programme, for which bulk of the required €90 million in funding has been sourced, calls for Fokker Aircraft Services to modify the Fokker 100 development aircraft to NG specification as a proof-of-concept demonstrator. This aircraft should fly by early 2012.
A total of €500 million will be needed to complete the planned second phase, which would see production reinstated by 2015.
Van Eeghen says that the June go ahead will clear the way to begin preparing the production plan. This is likely to involve suppliers of major build packages and negotiations are under way with potential partners, he adds. "We are going to be far leaner than the old Fokker - basically we are a supply chain management company."
The original Fokker 70/100 assembly line was located at the company's plant at Schiphol airport in Amsterdam. Van Eeghen says that two sites in the Netherlands are being evaluated to house the new line - Lelystad near Amsterdam and Woensdrecht in the south of the country, where Fokker Aircraft Services has a plant. A decision should be made before year-end.
Van Eeghen says NG Aircraft aims to capture "a steady 12%" of the long-term market, which equates to around 50 aircraft annually, and predicts the revived twinjet "could easily" stay in production for at least 20 years.


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/07/340335/ng-aims-to-decide-on-fokker-100-assembly-line-location-by.html

Juste pour préciser que le coût global est finalement bien supérieur aux 20 millions d'euros.
Ca sera 20 + 90 pour les essais en vol + 500 pour la production avec un objectif d'une cinquantaine d'avions par an

Bonne soirée


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Beochien le Lun 12 Avr 2010 - 15:04

L'article de Flightglobal today !
Ils ont la pêche chez NG / Fokker!
Nessie à encore frappé !
Suis pas sur que Embraer et Bombardier en perdent le sommeil !

---------- Extrait ------------

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/12/340428/benelux-special-ng-aircraft-plans-fokker-100-revival.html

DATE:12/04/10
SOURCE:Flight International

Benelux special: NG Aircraft plans Fokker 100 revival

One of the longest-running sagas in recent civil aerospace history
may conclude this summer if the planned relaunch of the [url=http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/fokker 70.html]Fokker
70[/url]/100 regional jet gets the nod.
Ever since production of the Dutch twinjet ended in 1997, there have
been on/off plans to relaunch the popular 80- to 110-seat family,
masterminded by Jaap Rosen Jacobson, who was owner of Antwerp-based [url=http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/vlm airlines.html]VLM
Airlines[/url]. For many years the revival effort was made under the
umbrella of the curiously named "Rekkof Restart" (the first word being Fokker
spelt backwards). The latest revival is being attempted by Rekkof's
successor, NG Aircraft, which is still headed by Jacobson. He is being
assisted by a small team that includes former Fokker marketing chief and
Fokker Aircraft USA chief executive Maarten Van Eeghen.
Powered by the Rolls-Royce Tay 620/650, the 107-seat Fokker 100 was a
major derivative of the 1960s F28, which entered service with Swissair
in March 1988. It was joined in 1995 by the smaller, 79-seat Fokker 70,
but the collapse of Fokker a year later led to the twinjet's premature
demise after 324 had been delivered. "I could have signed a very large
order at that time with Mesa for the Fokker 70, but Fokker folded," says
Van Eeghen.

After various abortive attempts over the next decade to relaunch the
programme, when Jacobson managed to source all the production tooling
from the manufacturer and suppliers and the intellectual property from
the receiver, NG Aircraft believes it now has a strong business case to
revive the aircraft.
"The whole project started again because one of our major operators
told us it could see little or no improvement over the Fokker 100 with
what's on offer today - that's because the aircraft is so light," says
Van Eeghen.
NG aims to bring the twinjet back within five years, with build and
performance updates, additional fuel capacity and - significantly -
power from a new, but yet-to-be revealed engine. This will ensure full
competitiveness with new-generation rivals such as the Embraer
E-Jet family as well as the Pratt & Whitney GTF-powered Bombardier
CSeries and Mitsubishi MRJ regional jet, believes NG Aircraft. The
focus of the exercise will be the larger Fokker 100, but the 70 will
also be offered.
For the dream to become a reality, NG Aircraft is awaiting approval
in June from the European Union for a €20 million ($27 million) loan
agreed with the Dutch economics ministry to be provided on the basis of
supporting innovation in civil aircraft development.
Brussels approval - which Van Eeghen says should be a formality -
will clear the way for the launch of the programme this summer, when the
engine will also be revealed. The funding required to get the programme
off the ground and through the demonstrator phase is €90 million, most
of which has been committed, Van Eeghen says. "The programme will
require around €500 million," he adds. "Once we get the green light for
the loan we can start modifying the original prototype Fokker 100 and
that should fly around 18 months later."
NG has linked with Stork's two Fokker divisions to support the
revival, says Van Eeghen. "Lead engineer for phase one is Fokker
Services in Nieuw Vennep. The proof-of-concept development aircraft will
be modified by Fokker Aircraft Services at its Woensdrecht plant."
The demonstrator, expected to be ready by early 2012, will undertake
"a couple of months" of testing, ahead of the construction of the first
aircraft, which should arrive in 2015 and enter service by the end of
that year.
Van Eeghen says work is under way to complete a digital mock-up of
the entire aircraft. This will be key to NG's plan to modernise the
production process, with a 20% reduction in build-costs targeted.
Meanwhile the Dutch national aerospace laboratory NLR is designing a
winglet for the enhanced aircraft.
Once launched, NG will finalise the production plan, which should
include supplier partners responsible for major build packages. "We are
already in negotiations with one or two potential partners. We are going
to be far leaner than the old Fokker - we are a supply chain management
company," says Van Eeghen.
NG Aircraft's market analysis predicts the revived twinjets could
capture "a steady 12%" of the long-term market, "around 50 aircraft a
year, which is probably too conservative," Van Eeghen says. "This
aircraft could easily go for another 20 years as we don't see anything
new being planned that will offer better performance - if necessary we
could even make another jump like Boeing
with the 737." [/color]
---------------------

JPRS
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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Beochien le Lun 23 Aoû 2010 - 12:15

Bonjour !

Nessie reviens aprés lesVacances !
et le GVT Hollandais, devant un prêt ... sympa avec l'ambiance WTO actuelle !

Noté quand même ... 18 % d'écos, avec Sharklets et nouveaux moteurs !
Des chiffres persistants !
Ce ne sera pas avec des TAY ! ni de RB 282, RR ne va pas se lancer sur un coup si risqué .... avec un nouveau moteur, pas prêt non plus !
Juste regarder ce qu'il y aura +/- dispo sur le marché dans 2 ans ! ....

------------------- Extrait de FG, la FIN -----------------

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/08/23/346346/ng-aircraft-closes-in-on-eu-loan-decision.html

--------------
Van Eeghen says the queries are "nothing material", mainly relating to the original Fokker 100 programme and why the iconic Dutch manufacturer went out of business in 1995. "They want to have a good understanding of the history," Van Eeghen says.

He adds that the slower than expected process has not yet resulted in any delays to the programme timetable, which calls for the first flight of the modernised aircraft to be made in early 2012. Technical work has been continuing behind the scenes over the summer, adds Van Eeghen.

NG is waiting for a decision from the EU before detailing major aspects of the programme, notably the engines that will replace the 107-seat Fokker 100's original Rolls-Royce Tay 620/650 powerplants and the location of the planned production line.

It says the quality of the original aircraft has resulted in persistent interest from carriers in reviving the design and believes that a modernised version with new engines, systems and winglets will reduce fuel-burn by 18% compared with the Embraer 190.

JPRS
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Lun 23 Aoû 2010 - 12:30

Rapidement le Tay pousse environ 15 000 lbd (67 kN) sur le F100 pour un poids de 1600 kg

On avait tablé sur les BR725, adaptés à l'implantation fuselage arrière (15 - 17000 lbf, 1635 kg)

Mais de plus récent il y a le Sam146 qui est un peu surdimensionné et pas prévu pour un implantation fuselage arrière... (76 kN et 17000 lbf, et 1700 kg) donc +100 kg par moteur ... ce qui n'est pas non plus a mer à boire.


Qui d'autre ? Les CF34-10A de l'ARJ21 pourraient être adaptés (même montage arrière)

Voilà voilà



Liens :

http://easa.europa.eu/certification/type-certificates/docs/engines/EASA-TCDS-E.063_Rolls--Royce_Deutschland_Tay_Series_engines-01-24112008.pdf


http://easa.europa.eu/certification/type-certificates/docs/engines/EASA-TCDS-E.018_Rolls--Royce_Deutschland_BR700--710_Series_engines-02-23062009.pdf


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Beochien le Lun 23 Aoû 2010 - 12:39

Pour "Essayer" de gagner 18 Points, je regarderais par là !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_PW1000G

Mais je n'y crois pas trop, le P&W du MRJ, sera plus dans les 12-13 %

Mais faire l'âne pour avoir du son du gvt Hollandais pourquoi pas !

JPRS
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Lun 23 Aoû 2010 - 13:00

Effectivement pile poil celui du MRJ

Mais la position "arrière" des moteurs est un critère à priori drolement important, c.f. les évolutions entre le CF34-10E et le 10A.
Du boulot... et donc des sous

Pour fixer les choses

Fan diameter

Tay : 1.14 m
BR725 : 1.27 m
PW1200 : 1.42 m
CF34-10A : 1.34 m (pas simple à trouver comme info)


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Beochien le Lun 23 Aoû 2010 - 13:08

Je cois que pour l'instant, l'équipe Fokker NG, tout ce qu'ils cherchent, c'est des crédits, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Et ils projetteraient et promettraient la lune s'il le fallait ..
Bien d'accord qu'un coup de rotation à 90° ça peut être trés coûteux !

JPRS
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Lun 23 Aoû 2010 - 13:12

Le problème est que la lune maigrit Wink


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aeroduO5
Whisky Quebec

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par aeroduO5 le Lun 23 Aoû 2010 - 16:35

Pour moi s'ils gagnent 18% par rapport au F100 ce sera déjà beau.
Avec seulement de nouveaux moteurs et des winglets il ne faut pas demander la lune. drunken
Les nouveaux moteurs risquent d'être plus lourds et il faudra des renforts des ailes pour les winglets, donc une partie du gain sera absorbée.

Pour gagner 18% sur l'E 190 il faudra plus que ce qui est annoncé. Embraer a quand même bien bossé ses avions même s'ils sont un peu lourds.
J'aimerais voir ce projet aboutir mais ceux qui le mènent n'ont pas l'air très en phase avec les réalités aéronautiques.
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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Beochien le Lun 23 Aoû 2010 - 16:41

Ben Ils pleurent pour qq dizaines de millions ...
Bien loin du compte à mon avis !
Ce sont 200-300 qu'il leur faudrait !
Et le double s'ils veulent un moteur moderne ... !

Pour les winglets ... on ne sait pas comment est l'aile, ça peut passer ... ou pas !
Mais pour un court-moyen courrier ... bof, ça va dépendre des missions !
Mais une bonne étude, c'est pas donné non plus !

JPRS
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Paul
Whisky Quebec

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Paul le Mar 24 Aoû 2010 - 2:31

Bonjour,

Si par miracle ils réussissent à atteindre les 18%, l'autonomie ne sera pas au rendez-vous comparé à un E-190.
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Jeu 25 Nov 2010 - 21:39

Bonsoir à tous

Qq retard dans l'attribution d'un prêt et de sa validation par l'EU entraînent un retard dans l'annonce du motoriste choisi
Sachant que le "proof of concept" est prévu pour 2012 et la série pour 2015 ça laisse

BR725 adapté au tout à l'arrière
CF34 dispo en certaines version tout à l'arrière même en version la plus puissance (celle de l'ARJ21)
SaM146 qui n'existe pas pour le moment en tout à l'arrière

J'en oublie ?
Trop tot pour le LeapX et les PW1XXXG GTF

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=aviationdaily&id=news/avd/2010/11/24/02.xml&headline=NG To Launch F-100NG, Reveal Engine In Early 2011

NG Aircraft aims to formally launch its Fokker 100 revival project and reveal the identity of the new powerplant once contract negotiations are completed early next year.

The company plans to relaunch production of a modernized version of the 110-seat jet, dubbed F-100NG, by 2015. Following the European Commission’s approval of a €20 million ($27 million) loan from the Dutch government, NG Aircraft is ready to begin the first phase of the revival plan, which will involve converting one of the original Fokker 100 prototypes as a proof-of-concept aircraft for flight testing in 2012.

Central to the upgrade is the replacement of the Fokker 100’s original Rolls-Royce Tay engines with a new but as yet undisclosed powerplant. The company had hoped to be in a position to reveal the new engine by now, but says this will now happen when the program is launched early next year.

“Approval of the loan came much later than initially committed by the EC,” says an NG Aircraft spokesman. “This directly affected our own schedule.”

NG says that the slip in the approval has delayed contract negotiations with investors and suppliers, and until these are completed it cannot disclose further details about the program.

“Talks with investors and suppliers were subject to approval from Brussels,” says NG. “We expect to finalize these talks around the first quarter of 2011, allowing us to formally launch the program.”
Lancement formel du programme T1 2010

Le créneau va être encombré... maitenant il va falloir voir le prix

Le site des optimistes pour rappel

http://www.rekkof.nl/



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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Beochien le Jeu 25 Nov 2010 - 21:55

Il ne manque que 980 millions pour qu'ils s'en sortent .... aprés l'accord de prêt par l'EU !
Ou un motoriste sévèrement étrillé, sur toutes ses lignes, qui reprenne les choses en main, pour démontrer qq chose !
Suivez mon regard !

JPRS
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Jeu 25 Nov 2010 - 22:07

Kusnetsoff ?

Wink

La poussée affichée sur le site correspond pour le F100 à celle du Sam146 du SSJ95
La bestiole d'origine fait
F100 actuel
24.5 t à vide, 45,8 t en MTOW et 1700 Nm "fully loaded" (107 en une classe)
CRJ1000
23.3 t à vide, 41,6 t en MTOW et 1700 NM (100 places)


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Beochien le Jeu 25 Nov 2010 - 22:08

Ben oui entre autres ...
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Ven 4 Fév 2011 - 13:24

Bonjour à tous

Etude d'une version Combi - Freighter du F-100 à destination des cies minières notamment
Un démonstrateur constitué d'un fuselage d'un ex avion AF va être tranformé.

Capacité de 12-14t en version FRET, avec capacité de chargement de modules LD3 (11)

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/04/352758/combi-freighter-plan-emerges-for-fokker-100.html


US engineers are preparing a test fuselage for the development of a new Combi Reliever freighter conversion of the Fokker 100, using a ex-Air France Regional airframe.

Colorado-based Phoenix Aero Solutions is working on pre-order contracts for three converted aircraft with options on another six, although the company is not identifying the customer until the contract has been completed.

The company is undertaking preparatory work on the aircraft, a 20-year old example with serial number 11344, formerly in service with Deutsche BA and Air Liberté.

Under the test programme, the main structural components - including the wings, empennage and landing gear - are being removed from the airframe. The Rolls-Royce Tay 650 engines have also been taken off, and sold to powerplant overhaul company Dallas Airmotive. The test fuselage will be transported to a facility at Front Range airport near Denver where it will be developed with a 2.44m (96in) large freight door and E-class cargo interior.

It will also be subjected to pressure and stress tests to meet US and European regulatory requirements, after which Phoenix will own the supplemental type certificate and manufacture all modification parts.

Phoenix manager Stan Mounce says the process is similar to that carried out during development of the Fokker 50 freighter for Dutch firm Aircraft Conversions.

"We have had more than 18 additional countries take heavy interest in our programme, especially for the [Fokker 100] combi conversions for use in remote countries like Africa, Brazil and Australia," says Mounce. "These requests come from mining and oil companies."

The Fokker 100 Combi Reliever's door will be set in the left fuselage - with a future option for right-hand installation - and positioned to allow bulk cargo and containers to be located forward and aft. Its interior will include 9g cargo attachment points and an optional roller-floor.

It will have the capability to accommodate 11 LD3 containers, a cargo payload of 12-14t, or seat 20-50 passengers at the rear in combi configuration. The combi would include an aft service door with a 68cm (27in) upper clamshell modification to increase its height and provide comfortable passenger entry.

Phoenix says its design team is also planning an internal optional cargo-lifting mechanism for service to remote regions.


Et bien plus de détails, avec de belles coupes ici

http://phoenixaerosolutions.com/projects/

A suivre
Un autre débouché pour le F100 donc

Bonne journée


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Beochien
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Beochien le Ven 4 Fév 2011 - 13:31

Oui Superbe !

Les 12-14 tonnes, pas mal !
Sacré démontages (Et transports) quand même !
Vu ce matin, sais plus ou, qu'ils démontaient tout, même les ailes, transportaient la cellule etc ... et planifiaient un overhaul des moteurs !
Plus les Overhaul ou de nouveaux moteus ...
10 millions de $ ou plus ??
Certainement une excellente cellule !

JPRS
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Poncho (Admin)
Whisky Charlie

Re: Fokker F-70 et F-100

Message par Poncho (Admin) le Ven 4 Fév 2011 - 13:36

Non non
Ils ont acheter une cellule complète... et ils n'avaient besoin que du fuselage
Donc ils on revendu tout le reste... aile, moteurs, etc etc...

Grande porte pour charger du vrac de type poutre..

Wink


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