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24 participants

    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)


    Poncho (Admin)
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Poncho (Admin) Lun 14 Nov 2011 - 10:31

    Chacun prend sa niche d'une certaine manière

    En poussant le 777 vers les hautes capa ... Boeing va manger un peu son 747-8I

    Beochien
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Beochien Mar 15 Nov 2011 - 14:41

    Bonjour !

    Une réflexion de Robert Wall qui n'y comprend plus rien non plus ... ou pas grand chose !
    Et moi itou !
    Mais que veulent définitivement Qatar et EK !

    Le A350 - 1000 en concurrence ou en complément du 777-300ER, évidemment Airbus a son idée :
    C'est le 777 (Actuel) Killer, et on dirait que les clients établis (Et bien chargés) du 777 voudraient l'éviter !

    Plus gros, moins loin, finalement qui y comprend qq chose !
    Le A350-1000 ressemble à un accordéon !

    De toute façon Airbus ne pourra pas aller chercher la capa du 777, surtout s'ils l'agrandissent un peu et l'allégent et le remotorisent à la fin de la décennie !
    Alors pourquoi réaliser un A350-1000 surdimentionné, formule pas toujours gagnante !
    Et l'avis des Airliners du Golf n'est pas non plus la référence mondiale !

    Pfff ! Va falloir attendre une compil sérieuse de ce que veulent ces cies du Golf !
    En attendant c'est Boeing qui se marre et qui engrange !
    Et Airbus qui perd du temps !
    Le cas 320NEO/737 MAX à l'envers !
    Et dire que la sortie du NEO devait soit disant compliquer la vie à Boeing, avec les développements du 777 !
    Ben, ils le vendent sans efforts, et sans modifications pour l'instant ! Bravo !
    Et c'est Airbus qui souffre des retards du A350 ! confused

    ------------ De Robert Wall qui en remet une couche sur AvWeek , le lien ------------

    http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/commercial_aviation/ThingsWithWings/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbb&plckPostId=Blog%3a7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3adce58923-01f3-4db2-ab3f-3401677e26a4&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

    JPRS

    Beochien
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Beochien Mar 15 Nov 2011 - 17:56

    Bonjour !

    Je suis trés loin d'avoir tous les éléments comme Airbus et John Leahy mais ...

    Pour que Tim Clark cesse de casser les pieds ... pour être poli !
    Et vu qu'il va se cogner une indigestion de 777-300ER !

    C'est peut être l'heure de présenter à Tim Clark , EK , un 350-1000 à MTOW réduit de +/- 30 tonnes et de 6000 Nm d'autonomie, avec les mêmes moteurs que le 359, sans réservoir central, et MLG 8 roues, la formule éprouvée et à succés du 333, juste le fuselage à rallonger, le reste = au A359 !
    Lequel A350-1000 Shorter range, pourrait bien être prêt pour 2016 ! Les moteurs RR TXWB du 359 seront là, pas besoin d'autre chose !

    Bien sûr, bonjour les essais et les certifications, mais mon instinct "Marketing" me dit qu'il y a une solution dans ce sens, et pas seulement pour EK !
    De toute façon, cet avion il faudra le faire un jour ou l'autre et peut être aussi un freighter 80-90 Tonnes !

    Juste mon idée du coin du café de la gare !

    JPRS
    Beochien
    Beochien
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Beochien Mar 15 Nov 2011 - 19:00

    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 6348086042_400d897e04

    Ouf ! Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 15413

    Bien du mal à la copier celle là ! Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 488720

    Les facéties de John Leahy et T. Enders en pleine guerre du Golf ... hum ! jocolor

    Quand on se faisait tous du souci pour eux, les vaches, ils étaient morts de rire .. Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 7739
    2-3 milliards en jeu quand même ! Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 818279

    Un photographe trés adroit, un miroir au plafond, ou peut être, un grossier montage ... sais pas ! Suspect

    Mais de quoi rigoler un peu dans tous les cas, aprés une dure journée ! tongue

    De A.net ! Quote N14AZ rep 105 ! Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 80133

    http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5304666/

    JPRS
    Poncho (Admin)
    Poncho (Admin)
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Poncho (Admin) Mer 16 Nov 2011 - 8:58

    A priori le souci était la position de launch customer pour les 3 NEO

    Pour le reste, un A350-1000 simple stretch du -900 peut effectivement être tentant... mais il fera entre 6500-7000 Nm en distance franchissable à MAX PAX, il faudrait construire la courbe


    _________________
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    Beochien
    Beochien
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Beochien Mer 16 Nov 2011 - 13:12

    Bonjour !

    Pas si sur que ce soit le NEO qui ait bloqué ... ça a été avancé, mais d'autres pensent que c'est le A350-1000 qui énerve Al Baker (Mais tout l'énerve, le P2F des 330 aussi ...)
    Il aurait reçu des promesses pour le 351 , pour venir signer, vu, sais plus où !
    Bien, entre les clients qui veulent, vite en plus, un 351 qui possède strictement la même capa que le 777-300 ER, et ceux qui comme EK qui veulent l'intégrer en dessous des 777, c'est la quadrature du cercle !
    Airbus doit faire SES avions, c'est tout !
    Il existe beaucoup de clients wwide, qui pensent différemment !

    Comme je le propose un 350-1000 à MTOW réduit de 30 tonnes et dans les 6000nm de range , serait le bienvenu, facile, rapide à désigner, et pas trop cher à réaliser et il vendrait bien,et pourrait sortir juste aprés le 359 ! Le temps de penser un peu mieux au A358 Twisted Evil
    C'est mon idée Mktg ...

    De l'autre côté le 358 nouvelle définition, me paraît totalement à côté de la plaque ... sauf s'il postule au rôle de ULR (Ultra Long Range) pour une poignée de clients !
    Il est retourné discrètement sur la planche à dessin, le 358, tant mieux, à voir ce qu'ils vont proposer chez Airbus !

    Priorité au A359 de toute façon, c'est la seule option, la dizaine de développements possibles suivra les marchés !

    J'en profite pour éditer in extenso un trés bon post de ZEKE (Hong Kong) sur A.net ! Rép N° : 42 !

    Clair et les pieds sur terre, excellent !

    ----------------------

    http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5307288/

    Just some general observations on this thread without pointed at any one post above ....

    EK and QR both had talks with Boeing on the new generation 747 and 767, that did
    not stop them from buying the A380 and A350. A new iteration of the 777
    will not be able to “compete” on pure direct operating costs with the
    A350, very similar comparison between the A350 and 787. The airframe
    cannot be made as light as the A350 and engines will not be able to
    catch up as much in TSFC, and therefore will never have a comparable
    fuel burn of the A350, nor will it be able to meet the maintenance
    costs. The new 777 will however be able to lift more raw payload just
    like the A330 over the 787. The real point of discussion is how much the
    777 would need to be discounted to remain competitive with the A350,
    and what the price of fuel will be in 10 years. With a fuel burn
    difference in the order of 2t per hour, it is more then double the
    difference between the 77W and A340-600
    , and we know how that panned out
    as fuel prices increased, despite the A340-600 being able to carry more.

    Every A350 customer that I am aware of has a standard clause in their
    purchase contracts to change between models, so potentially every A350
    customer is an A350-1000 customer. The most popular A350 model is the
    first model that is becoming available. 77W are available with less than
    18 months lead time, an A350-1000 is a lot of years away, it would not
    even feature as a blip on many airlines medium term fleet plans, it is
    just too far away. The A350-900 however does feature as part of many
    airlines fleet plans as it is much closer to being delivered.

    Seating configuration is airline dependant, I know when CX
    looked at the 4 class configuration the difference between a 777-300ER
    and A350-1000, it was just 2 seats. With the IATA average load factor
    being 75% across the industry, 2 seats or 15 seats is really not that
    important. On a 12 hour flight, with 2t an hour fuel burn difference,
    today it would cost an airline around US$24,000 in extra fuel (on todays
    prices
    http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/economics/fuel_monitor/Pages/index.aspx).
    Those who can do the math know that the airline would need to sell
    those 15 seats for over US$1500 each just to cover the fuel cost at
    todays fuel price, where will that be in 10 years ?

    Most airlines do not operate at the edge of any range/payload area for
    the majority of the times (the exception would be cargo airlines which
    tend to operate more at MZFW), what they know is if they extended the
    limit, the "norm" will have a buffer. That buffer then takes into
    account other factors like performance problems on takeoff, or
    requirements for more fuel at the destination which are the "off ideal"
    conditions that an airline will encounter in real life.

    The tone of this thread is very much along the lines of the tone we saw
    regarding the A380, I hope this does not continue. People are very quick
    to write their “enemy's” epitaph, however the A380 despite being doomed
    according to the Boeing cheerleaders a.net mantra has performed better
    promised, and still has fantastic passenger appeal from those people who
    count, the passengers that fly inside them.

    Give the A350 some time, it is way way too early to judge the airframe, the market has not even considered its position yet.

    Merci ZEKE!

    JPRS


    avatar
    pascal974


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par pascal974 Jeu 17 Nov 2011 - 4:26

    quel est réellement le problème de l'A350 1000 ??? j'ai du mal a suivre + le manque de communication de la part d'airbus auprès des compagnies aerien sur l'avancé de cet avion laisse plané le doute ...

    cathay pacific , korean air , air france , SQ ont éxigé qu'airbus augmente la charge utile et le rayon d'action ...etc .....émirates et qatar ont le cul !!! entre 2 chaises ils ne savent plus ce qu'ils veulent peut-être

    ils ont trop de 77W sur les bras ? peur que l'A35J les rendes obselète plus tot ?? ....alors ils reclame que celui ci soit en desous ( perf ) du 77W ???....

    moi je dis qu'airbus ne devrais pas trop écouté émirates et le qatar ....plus tot visé l'intéret général .....car coté économie dans les émirats commence serieusement a s'éssouflé la preuve le chiffre d'affaire d'émirates est en baisse ...

    si la bulle éclat demain bon nombre de 77W et A380 risque de finir dans le désert avec un grand nombre de queue blanche a toulouse ou a seatle ...je suis certains que l'A35J est un bon avion mais airbus devrais faire un

    travaille d'explication sur les performances de l'A350 1000 s'il veut vendre un peu plus son avion dont le compteur est bloqué a 75 exemplaire ....



    Boeing's board would have to sign off on a multibillion-dollar gamble, and hope to earn the money back over decades. And, said analyst Adam Pilarski of Avitas, it's possible that "the Emirates bubble will burst eventually and those hoping for all the deliveries will be bitterly disappointed."
    Poncho (Admin)
    Poncho (Admin)
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Poncho (Admin) Jeu 17 Nov 2011 - 8:53

    Salut

    La réponse est en partie là
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2012485025_clark01.html

    In the three-class luxury-cabin layout Emirates wants, those planes respectively carry 320, 354 and 489 passengers.

    L'A350-1000 et le 777-300ER presque trop similaires pour EK (et EK a des tonnes de -300ER en commande)
    Ils veulent articuler leur flotte de cette manière :

    Long courrier : A350-900 / 777-300ER / A380-800
    Moyen courrier : A350-1000 / A380-900

    Donc ils partent sur un A350-1000 "léger"

    Enfin c'est ce que je pense


    _________________
    @avia.poncho
    Beochien
    Beochien
    Whisky Charlie


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    Message par Beochien Jeu 17 Nov 2011 - 20:33

    Bonsoir !

    A lire les post 111 à 116 de Anet !
    Pas le courage de les éditer ! Embarassed

    A350-1000: To Be Redefined? If So, How?

    http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5307288/

    Intéressant de suivre comment Tim Clark et Al Baker de Qatar, il y a plus d'un an à Farnborough voulaient (Et ont obtenu) des A350-1000, plus capable et volant plus loin !
    Mais 2 ans de plus à attendre ça ne passait plus .... !
    Il se re-charge, TC en 777 300 ER ... un peu son enfant, en plus !
    Maintenant, il veut la 1ere itération du A351, à mettre vite en service, et juste en dessous des 773 ER ...
    Pfff comment ils ont dû torturer le pauvre John Leahy ! Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 291825 Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 382782
    Reste plus qu'à sortir un A350-1000 version light 30 tonnes de moins, pour servir l'Europe, l'Afrique et l'Orient, à partir du Golf, et tout le monde sera content ! Idea
    En attendant les A359 vont arriver, ce n'est plus si loin 2014 !
    Beaucoup dépend des TXWB, espérons que RR ne se soit pas trompé ! bom

    Bonne lecture, un thread long mais intéressant !
    Quid du A358, plus personne n'en parle ! Il doit être retourné sur la planche celui là non ?? jocolor

    JPRS
    Poncho (Admin)
    Poncho (Admin)
    Whisky Charlie


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    Message par Poncho (Admin) Lun 21 Nov 2011 - 9:43

    Salut Beo
    On va laisser le -800 tranquille pour le moment... ;
    Airbus a des pb de "riche" : 3 variantes lancées simultanément pour contrer deux variantes de 787 (dont une pas encore ne service) et deux variantes de 777

    Ce qu'on lit ce matin :

    http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engines-components/news/bernstein-predicts-more-a350-delays-1118


    New York-based Bernstein Research said Airbus may experience more A350 delays.

    In a client report, Bernstein said the Emirates order for 50 Boeing 777s at Dubai highlights concern about the A350 schedule (ATW Daily News, Nov. 15).

    “The A350 situation at Airbus looks increasingly challenging, particularly after Emirates elected to order delivery of 777s spread over 2015-20,” the report said. “Based on our airline discussions in Dubai, we believe that A350 delays could extend beyond the current schedule, with the need for substantial weight reduction.”

    Bernstein has pushed back its forecast of the A350-900 first delivery by six monthsto mid 2015.

    Earlier this month, EADS announced a six-month delay in the A350-900 to mid 2014 – a year earlier than Bernstein’s new forecast (ATW Daily News, Nov. 11). Previously, Bernstein had Airbus delivering eight A350s in 2014 and 50 in 2015 (ATW Daily News, Aug. 23, 2010). It noted the 777 appears to be benefiting from concerns about the A350 availability and ultimate performance.

    “The 777 has performed very well for airlines in the region with high dispatch reliability. With uncertainty about the A350, the 777 orders also act as an insurance policy for airlines against A350 delays (much as A330 orders did for the 787).”

    Bernstein added that “the positive experience with the 777 also makes it a low-risk option compared to an all-new aircraft.”

    Bernstein donne mi 2015 pour l'A350-900 au lieu de mi 2014 donné par Airbus à Dubai...
    Et indique des pb de poids

    Ma traduction (avec lecture dans les boules de cristal) :

    - On parle d'autre chose que du -900 que personne n'a remis en cause à ce stade publiquement. Et dont la dernière com sur le poids au Bourget semblait loin d'être alarmante (à vérifier une fois l'avion assemblé...)

    Ce qu'on sait :
    -800 : trop lourd parce que skrink du -900 et qu'il se compare au 787-9 qui lui est un stretch -> bon candidat pour la cure d'amaigrissement
    -1000 : fait débat, je vois bien airbus chercher à optimiser le MZFW / MEW pour donner encore plus de charge utile. A voir et décripter les conséquences d'une SFC identique entre le Trent XWB93 d'origine et le Trent XWB97 : quelle sera la différence de poussée nécessaire en croisière compte tenu des surpoids ? Ce surpoids à vide est de 2.4 t toute chose égale par ailleurs, soit moins de 1%...

    Voilà ce que j'en pense



    _________________
    @avia.poncho
    Beochien
    Beochien
    Whisky Charlie


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    Message par Beochien Lun 21 Nov 2011 - 10:09

    Oui Poncho , c'est Bernstein NY qui fait un rapport pour un client (Commandé quand) 8 jours aprés Dubaï et largement basé sur les cdes et les bruits du salon et appuyé sur la cde des 50 777 deeEK !
    Un client atypique s'il en est !
    Et bizarrement avec le même nouveau délai de 6-9 mois de plus annoncés par Aspire !
    Drôle de timing, pour être honnête !

    JPRS


    Dernière édition par Beochien le Lun 21 Nov 2011 - 10:38, édité 1 fois
    Poncho (Admin)
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    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Poncho (Admin) Lun 21 Nov 2011 - 10:14

    Je complète :

    quelqu'un peut-il me confirmer :

    A350-1000 avant PAS11 : MTOW 298t MZFW 213.5 t
    A350-1000 après PAS11 : MTOW 308t, MZFW 220 t OEW +2.4t = +4.1 t de charge utile même pour des missions ne décollant par à MTOW

    Jamais montré sur les graphes grand public
    Mais Airbus annonce bien une Charge utile supérieure au 777-300ER sans restriction d'intervalle de distance


    _________________
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    Message par Poncho (Admin) Lun 21 Nov 2011 - 10:22

    J'ai des traces avec un MZFW à 218.5t ... est ce que ça a été annoncé officiellement ?


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    Message par Poncho (Admin) Lun 21 Nov 2011 - 10:50

    Bon j'ai trouvé la trace d'une option à 218.7 t en septembre 2011

    Bref
    A l'inverse de ce que je disais avec cette option, le passage de 298 t 308 t conduit à une baisse de presque 1 t de la charge utile
    Au passage aussi Tim Clark demandait en mars 2011 un -1000 + comparable au 777-300 er Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 662529, et déplorait surtout de ne pas pouvoir l'avoir dans le même timing que le -900


    _________________
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    Beochien
    Beochien
    Whisky Charlie


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    Message par Beochien Lun 21 Nov 2011 - 11:02

    Re Poncho !

    Sans données claires de Airbus pour recaler les compteurs du 350-1000 (Et s'ils ne le font pas, c'est certainement par ce qu'ils planchent encore dessus pour être dans les clous (Et même peut être sur le 359 pour ne pas être trop loin) ...
    Je ne vois guère d'éléments nouveaux ... depuis le Bourget !
    Sauf que je pense qu'avec le délai qu'ils ont devant eux, ils ont le temps de faire le nécessaire pour tenir leurs dernières promesses !
    Quant à porter autant que le B777-300 ER , et aussi loin, voit le shéma de Ferpe sur A.net .. et si c'est juste (Sais pas) L'airbus serait "Meilleur" aprés plus de 6000 nm .. peut être !
    Pour celà il faudrait de sacrés moteurs côté ECO de conso, on verra !

    A part celà c'est silence radio sur le A358, donc ré-évaluation et/ou refonte en cours !
    Airbus a dit qu'il n'était pas question de l'abandonner !

    Comptent 'ils sur un coup de boost des perfs "Moteur" de RR ?
    Ou une forme de refonte de la gamme : Plus franchement vers la niche ULH 9000 nm +, et remplaçant le A345, ou retour vers un MTOW 20 tonnes en dessous pour faire vraiment la guerre au 787-9!
    Ou encore une gamme qui se duplique, comme initialement prévu il y a 4 ans, avec des MTOW réduits à terme pour les 3 itérations ! Ce que je souhaîte !
    Pour l'instant, ils sont entre 2 chaises Airbus, et plus personne n'en veut de leur 358 !
    Ca, on l'avait vu ici depuis longtemps !
    Ouarf ! alien

    Juste mon idée !

    JPRS
    Poncho (Admin)
    Poncho (Admin)
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Poncho (Admin) Mar 22 Nov 2011 - 13:01

    Bonjour à tous

    Un message intéressant ici

    http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5289057/#108

    Quelles sources ?
    En tout cas encourageant quand même

    Même le poids semble OK pour le -900


    _________________
    @avia.poncho
    Beochien
    Beochien
    Whisky Charlie


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    Message par Beochien Jeu 24 Nov 2011 - 21:25

    Comment faire une aile de A350 !
    Bien Intéressant ! Et d'autres thèmes, à lire !
    De : The engineer !

    Je ne savais pas que les peaux seraient largement collées, pas beaucoup de rivets .. hum ...si ça se décolle en vol !

    ---------------- Le lien et un extrait, c'est de Juin 2011 ----------------

    http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/the-big-story/composite-class-developing-the-airbus-a350-xwb/1009059.article

    The wing of the A350 XWB is an integral part of the overall design
    for fuel economy, and may be the most distinctive part of the aircraft,
    with its thin cross section and upwards-curving tips. It is the second
    composite wing that Airbus has tackled, but the first for a commercial
    airliner; the first was for the A400M military transport aircraft.

    The way the wings will be constructed does, however, represent a first for
    the company: they will be built in a horizontal configuration, instead
    of vertically, like previous wings. This is to allow access to the
    central wing box area and to make the holes for the components installed
    underneath the wings easier to get to.
    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 20_22_A350_wing_shell_lay_up_2010
    Thinking straight: in a first for Airbus, the A350 wings will be assembled horizontally rather than vertically

    The wings will be assembled at Airbus’s facility in Broughton, near
    Manchester, using parts from all over the world: front spar from Spirit
    Aerosystems in the US; rear spar from GKN in Filton, near Bristol;
    leading edge also from Spirit, but this time from Prestwick in Scotland;
    upper cover from Germany; and lower cover from Spain.

    Once shipped to Broughton, the spars will be attached to the
    aluminium-lithium ribs, and the covers will be fixed temporarily into
    place for drilling. The covers are a single piece, rather than multiple
    parts as on the much larger A380 wing and, again in contrast to the
    A380, the skins for the wings are bonded rather than bolted into place,
    so far fewer holes are needed only 5,000 per cover, rather than the
    quarter of a million for an A380 cover. Once drilled, the covers are
    removed for deburring and sealing, and then replaced for fastening onto
    the structure. The internal structures fuel tanks and some of the
    hydraulics are installed, before the wing is sent for painting and then
    flown over to another Airbus plant, in Bremen, where the electrics,
    pneumatics, control surfaces and remaining hydraulics are put into
    place. When that is done, it’s off to the final assembly in Toulouse.

    Read more: http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/the-big-story/composite-class-developing-the-airbus-a350-xwb/1009059.article#ixzz1eekWfIDh

    _______________________________
    Et pour le HUD ! Airbus veut le généraliser !

    _______________________________
    HUD is a relative newcomer to commercial airline cockpits, although
    it has been used by military pilots for years. However, Airbus began
    using it in 2009, and had it on its wishlist for the A350 series from
    the start, said Michel Soler of Thales Avionics. ’Thales’s HUD was part
    of the initial design of the A350
    and will get certification when the
    aircraft enters into service, meaning quicker delivery for customers,’
    he said. ’HUD on commercial airliners is now a real trend. Our goal is
    for this type of product to become standard on all Airbus aircraft in
    the near term.’



    Read more: http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/the-big-story/composite-class-developing-the-airbus-a350-xwb/1009059.article#ixzz1eemFwAXr


    JPRS





    Beochien
    Beochien
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Beochien Mar 29 Nov 2011 - 1:40

    Bonsoir !

    Les test statiques du A350 !
    C'est pour bientôt, à Toulouse, D'aprés FG, le blog de Kamynski-Morov !

    Au fait, personne ne parle des ailes ...

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-prepares-first-a350-for-main-structural-tests-365076/

    JPRS
    Poncho (Admin)
    Poncho (Admin)
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Poncho (Admin) Mar 29 Nov 2011 - 9:14

    C'est touffu comme communication

    Si je comprends on a :

    - ES : avion complet pour les tests statiques : premier avion à être assemblé en fait
    - EF1 / EF2 /EF3 qui sont des "bouts d'avions" pour les essais de fatigue

    A350 chief engineer Gordon McConnell said the fatigue test aircraft will be divided between three stations. EF1 will
    handle the nose sections 11, 12 and 13, while EF2 will deal with central sections 15-21, and 22, including the belly fairing and wing box. EF3 will focus on empennage sections 16-19, with a stub vertical fin.
    The fatigue structures will include dummy parts for the nose and main landing gear, horizontal stabiliser and tail cone.
    - EW : Demi-aile gauche pour les essais spécifiques à l'aile dont l'essai de charge ultime

    On parle aussi des deux simus de vol de développement qui sont / seront couplés à l'Iron bird. Simus en place et déjà utilisés.

    quelques éléments intéressant pour le -1000 :
    - hypothèse d'un empennage réduit -> non retenu
    - travail sur les volets (mini trailing edge device ? KESAKO ?) -> non retenu

    Retenu cependant : optimisation de l'insertion du train (en lien avec le MTOW augmenté? ), relocalisation de la RAT (-> optimisation de la soute ?)

    A suivre

    Ca a quand même l'air d'avancer sérieusement


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    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Poncho (Admin) Jeu 1 Déc 2011 - 9:32

    Bonjourà tous

    http://www.aspireaviation.com/2011/12/01/airbus-a350-faces-further-challenges-business-case-remains-sound/


    During EADS’s 9-month earnings call, EADS chief financial officer (CFO) Hans Peter Ring stated Europe’s largest aerospace group has “seen some activities on the supply of key components being later than expected,” and that Airbus was facing a “shortage of parts” on the A350. Ring attributed the delays to financial difficulties currently faced by key suppliers. “All suppliers are in big difficulties. It is difficult for medium-sized companies to get access to funding,” he said, adding concerns about Europe’s macroeconomic environment meant Airbus had to remain “very vigilant throughout the supply chain” in order to avoid further delays. Ring refused to single out any individual supplier, saying, “I would not pinpoint this to specific suppliers – the whole system is under pressure. Airbus has deployed teams to help suppliers where necessary”.
    In illustrating EADS’s risk mitigation strategy on the A350, Ring mentioned the company’s acquisition of a majority stake in German A350 tubings supplier PFW Aerospace, which saved PFW from bankruptcy and a production line shutdown, thereby preventing related delays to the A350 production.


    Encore une vision plutôt pessimiste pour l'A350
    Airbus surveille sa chaine de fournisseurs qui sont touché par le "credit crunch 2 : le retour"


    Further delays likely as Airbus grapples with weight reduction, new technologies
    Having been delayed by more than one year, the A350 is likely to face further delays, which Aspire Aviation believes will ultimately total 2 years from its original mid-2013 entry into service (EIS) target, if not more. A 16th November research note by New York-based Bernstein Research to its clients states that, “the A350 situation at Airbus looks increasingly challenging, particularly after Emirates elected to order delivery of 777s spread over 2015-20. Based on our airline discussions in Dubai, we believe that A350 delays could extend beyond the current schedule, with the need for substantial weight reduction”.
    Aspire Aviation’s various sources at the European airframer have reiterated that while the A350-900 is modestly overweight in Airbus’ design software, design changes have enabled parts arriving in Toulouse’s final assembly line (FAL) to be only slightly overweight. However, slight weight problems on each individual part can easily add up to tonnes of overweight on an aircraft as large as the A350, which helps explain Bernstein’s statement. The research firm now expects the first delivery of the A350-900 to take place in mid-2015, more than a year later than Airbus’ current projection.
    Even more important for the A350-900 is risk management, to which Airbus attributes a significant chunk of the A350’s 6-month delay. “The foundations of the programme are robust and a lot of risks have been mitigated, sometimes at the expense of more time spent – wing root joint, stringers damage tolerance, electrical systems installation – but always for the maturity of the programme,” EADS stated in June. Industry analyst Scott Hamilton of Leeham Co. stated that it is prudent for Airbus to build additional margins totalling as many as 6 months in the A350-900′s schedule, which Aspire Aviation concurs, given the unprecedented amount of new technologies featured on the Airbus A350.
    The A350 has been called a “hybrid” project by Airbus comprising 52% lightweight carbon fibre materials, which are being found on its fuselage panels, joints, fasteners and keel beam, while maintaining the aluminum frame typical of current generation aircraft. Even though Boeing has already proven such technologies on the 787, composites manufacturing remains challenging, contributing to part of the significant delays to the 787 Dreamliner and potentially the A350 XWB.
    Airbus has elected to use composites only on the A350′s wings. The new wing, which has a surface area of 443 square meters featuring a sweep angle of 31 degrees, enables the A350’s typical cruise speed to Mach 0.85. A new high-lift system has been adopted for the trailing edge of the wing, utilising an advanced dropped-hingeflap, enabling the gap between the trailing edge and the flaps to be closed using the spoiler, in addition to the differential flap setting (DFS) and variable camber (VC) which redistribute critical loads inward and help reduce weight.
    Airbus has also incorporated numerous technologies from its larger A380 superjumbo aircraft on the A350, including its nose configuration adopted from the A380 with a 6 panels cockpit glazing and a forward mounted nose landing gear bay. Additionally, the aircraft’s integrated modular avionics were first developed for the A380, although the A350’s examples manage up to 40 in-flight functions whereas the ones on the A380 only control 23.

    Petit surpoids à ce stade (annoncé par Airbus)
    Les pièces ont du être pesées à ce stade néanmoins, ce qui doit donner une bonne vision avant l'assemblage final quand même


    A350-1000 faces own troubles
    Clark and Al-Baker may have been particularly vituperative towards Airbus given their displeasure over the largest A350 variant in the aircraft family, the A350-1000. Speaking to media at the Dubai Air Show, Clark said regarding the A350-1000, “we want the original specification I do not remember that we wanted something new and I really wonder why they [Airbus] did not ask”.
    Emirates and Qatar Airways feel that the redesigned A350-1000 launched by Airbus in June at the Paris Air Show in June with a two-year delay in entry into service (EIS) to 2017 is not the aircraft that they originally signed up for, and that the operating economics on these new aircraft may have been compromised by the increased weight, which has not fully been offset by the increases in range and maximum take-off weight (MTOW).
    In June, Airbus announced a two-year delay to the A350-1000’s EIS to help facilitate numerous design changes to the largest A350 variant. As part of these modifications, the engine thrust on the modified Trent XWB powering the A350-1000 will be increased to 97,000 lbs. from 93,000 lbs. The additional thrust will enable the A350-1000 to carry 350 passengers fly 400 nautical miles (nm) farther, or another 4.5 tonnes of payload, prompting an increase in maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of the aircraft from 298 tonnes to 308 tonnes. The aircraft will retain the same fuselage size as before, as well as almost 100% hardware commonality with the A350-900, but the wing will be “optimised, not new,” implying that Airbus will utilise a scale-up of the A350-900’s wing with few modifications.
    Airbus is optimistic that the more powerful Rolls-Royce Trent XWB engines on the A350-1000 will not affect the aircraft’s fuel burn performance, claiming there is “no specific fuel consumption impact”. The upgraded Trent XWB engine will feature the same 118-inch fan blades as the smaller XWB, but will spin 6% faster and feature altered internal aerodynamics and a 3-4% larger core with a scaled up annulus will draw a larger airflow through the same intake. Additional efficiency tools include a dual microstructure technique implemented in turbine manufacture that enables the properties of the engine discs to vary in line with the different temperatures at the engine’s hub as compared to the engine’s rim.
    These engine modifications will add roughly 2.4 tonnes to the aircraft’s empty weight. Additionally, Aspire Aviation has learned from its sources at Airbus that the Airbus A350-1000 is around 5 tonnes overweight in Airbus’ design software. The combination of these two factors could represent a significant fuel burn penalty, which Aspire Aviation estimates at around 3%-5%, for the A350-1000. However, given that Airbus will have at least 5 years worth of time before the A350-1000’s revised entry into service (EIS), Aspire Aviation thinks Airbus should be able to implement weight reductions to recover a large portion of these added 7.5 tonnes.
    In spite of all its troubles, the A350-1000 is nevertheless likely to be a highly efficient up-scale of the A350-900, with fuel burn per seat between 15%-25% better than the Boeing 777-300ER.

    5t de surpoids selon des sources internes (lesquelles ?) Gros chiffre, mais on est effectivement assez loin de la mise en service. Je garde en tête que le 787-8 a eu de gros pb, et que manifestemment le -9 sera plus calme de ce côté là.




    Though Qatar Airways and Emirates have been vociferous about the performance shortfalls, as the additional 15 seats and larger cargo space of the 777-300ER can outweigh the better fuel efficiency of the A350-1000 XWB, especially given the around US$ 25 million list price differential between the two aircraft.
    Furthermore, Boeing is very likely to strengthen its market leadership in the 350-400 seats segment by launching a revamped 777-8/9X, a move already under consideration by the Chicago-based aircraft manufacturer. However, Boeing does have a buffer period and more leverage while deciding whether to go forward with the major 777 upgrade, as industry analysts mostly agree the A350-1000′s entry into service (EIS) could easily slip into 2018-2019, and possibly even early 2020. Aspire Aviation reported in December that Boeing is eyeing a provisional date of launch for the 777-8X/-9X in 2013 with a 2019 entry into service (EIS) with the -8X and -9X being the revamped versions of the ultra long-range 777-200LR and the popular 777-300ER variants, respectively.
    A new 777X would likely feature a revamped version of the GE90-115B1 engine that currently powers the Boeing 777-300ER. Boeing is targeting a 10% specific fuel consumption (SFC) improvement for the new engine versus the already fuel-efficient GE90-115B1 which burns 0.25 pounds of fuel per pound of thrust delivered per hour (lb/lbt/hr), which would negate a large chunk of the fuel burn advantage currently possessed by the Rolls-Royce Trent XWB engines.
    From a payload perspective, the A350-1000 currently has a maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 308 tonnes whereas the 777-300ER has an MTOW of 351.55 tonnes. A 777-9X which is slated to replace the 777-300ER would likely see a modest MTOW reduction to around 342 tonnes while retaining a similar range to that of the 777-300ER primarily owing to the weight saving brought by the new composite wings. The 777-9X would also likely be scaled upwards to around 390 seats through “internal stretching” of the cabin.
    When coupled with a 10% fuel burn reduction from the engines, the additional seats would push the fuel burn per seat reductions to 10-15% versus the 777-300ER (“New Boeing 777X likely to be a highly efficient derivative”, 14th Sep, 11). Additionally, increased usage of composites, and/or aluminum-lithium (Al-Li) technologies would provide both weight reductions and improved maintenance costs. That said, the cash operating costs (COC) of a 777-9X could easily be 20-25% less than the Boeing 777-300ER’s, which if Boeing were to maintain the 8.1% advantage in list prices for the 777-300ER versus the A350-1000, would in fact give the 777-9X an advantage in direct operating costs (DOC , DOC = COC + capital cost).
    Aspire Aviation thinks that Alcoa’s 3rd-generation aluminium-lithium (Al-Li) technology, which the world’s largest aluminium producer says offers a 12% better fuel efficiency with 10% weight saving and a 6% reduction in skin friction drag, as a very attractive option for an application on the 777X, given the existing production system of aluminium materials is well understood and it carries substantially less risk as well as costing substantially less than upscaling the autoclaves composite production system adopted by the Boeing 787 Dreamliner programme.

    Comme c'est long, je coupe en deux



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    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Poncho (Admin) Jeu 1 Déc 2011 - 9:36

    La suite


    Delays will not affect business case of A350-900
    Despite the short-term troubles for the baseline A350-900 variant, much as with the 787, its longer-term prospects remain sound. Delays are always pricey for original equipment manufacturers (OEMs), and Airbus could still be forced to push the A350-900 further back.
    However, the Airbus A350-900 occupies a unique niche as a replacement aircraft for current generation widebodies, it is probably the only true replacement for the Boeing 777-200ER, which is the second most popular 777 variant of which 428 examples have been sold through October 2011, only behind the 777-300ER’s stellar sales performance of which 545 examples have been sold by the end of October.
    Whereas Boeing has pitched both the 787-9 and the potential 787-10X as 777-200ER replacements, the 787-9 is considerably smaller than an A350-900, and the 787-10X’s proposed payload/range capabilities are insufficient to truly replace the 777-200ER, which in fact serves well as an A330-300 replacement with a range of 6,800 nautical miles (nm) while offering a 20% fuel burn saving over an A330-300. Therefore carriers will likely be forced to choose between the 777-200ER and the A350-900 XWB for replacement and growth, absent a revamped 777X that is designed as a true 777-200ER replacement. A few carriers, such as Japan’s All Nippon Airways (ANA) have elected to remain operators of the Boeing 777-200ER with additional orders for a few more examples. But the vast majority of airlines have ordered the A350-900, and with good reason. As the economic analysis below shows, the Airbus A350-900 enjoys a significant advantage operationally versus the 777-200ER.
    Aspire Aviation has performed an economic analysis on the Airbus A350-900 versus the Boeing 777-200ER on a route of 5,500 nautical miles, which is within the typical operating envelope of the Boeing 777-200ER, with zero wind speed. This analysis makes numerous assumptions, most of which are actually favourable to the 777-200ER, and thus illustrates the A350-900’s significant advantage over the Boeing 777-200ER. A full list of assumptions is listed below.

    Fuel Burn
    For this mission, the Airbus A350-900 is around 24% more fuel efficient than the 777-200ER, mainly because the A350’s advantage in fuel burn during cruise is lessened due to the shorter stage length. During climb and descent, the A350 burns a similar amount of fuel to the 777-200ER. On longer missions that is 6,000 nautical miles (nm) and beyond, the fuel burn saving will likely be closer to 25-28%, matching Airbus’ figures.
    Maintenance
    The A350 was assumed to have maintenance costs roughly 20% better than those of the Boeing 777-200ER, reflecting highly increased usage of composite and alloy technologies, as well as other maintenance reductions on the A350.
    Navigation and Crew
    The navigation and crew costs were estimated to be the same or similar as both the A350-900 XWB and the 777-200ER would be in any country such as India)where navigation fees at airports are measured by aircraft type, not specific weight. Given that the A350-900 would serve as a direct replacement for the 777-200ER, crew costs would likely be similar for both types.
    Finance Charges
    The Airbus A350-900 is priced at roughly US$22 million higher than the 777-200ER. Monthly lease rates for airlines with good credit are typically on the range of 0.8% of the aircraft’s purchase price, and both aircraft were assumed to have annual utilisation rates of 4,750 hours, which are in-line with the standard utilisation on medium to long-haul routes by world airlines. (Note: the 4,750 annual flight hours figure was used for the maintenance calculation as well). Discount for the aircraft was assumed to be 35%.
    Overall
    While the figure of 10.6% better operating costs per seat for the A350-900 seems low, that figure is between US $15,000 – US $20,000 for typical flights in this range, which is a significant amount. And at longer ranges, the low fuel burn of the A350-900 would make that differential even bigger. Finance charges are perhaps the greatest equaliser, depending on the discounts offered, the 777-200ER could potentially become cheaper on a direct operating cost (DOC) basis, though it would likely require discounts of closer to 70% in order to achieve this rather than a typical discount rate of 35% by Boeing assumed in this analysis.
    Revenue Generation
    From a revenue perspective, at identical passenger density configurations, the 777-200ER has two more first class seats, three more business class seats, and eleven more economy class seats. For typical 3-class 777-200ER flights in the US such as those operated by United Airlines and American Airlines (AA), one-way fares in these classes usually trend towards the ratio of 6:3:1. Thus the 777-200ER would have a maximum earning potential of 8.9% more passenger revenue, assuming static yields for the remaining 15 seats. At the typical 80% load factor for long-haul flights, that figure would be around 7.2%. On the cargo side, the A350-900 can carry 8.6% more cargo, which at typical belly load factor of 60%, would translate into a 5.2% revenue advantage from cargo for the A350-900. All in all, the 777-200ER would enjoy between a 6-8% maximum revenue advantage over the A350-900, or 4-7% at typical loads. This revenue advantage cannot outweigh the more than 10% operating cost advantage held by the A350-900.

    Conclusion
    As with the 787, the negative effects of A350 delays will eventually be outweighed by the superior operating economics offered by the aircraft. Airbus has been painstaking in its attempt to ensure that the A350-900, with all of its new technologies, is mature before it enters into service and it is unquestionably better to have any potential safety issues discovered and fixed before delivery than after the aircraft type entered operation. In the short to medium term, however, these delays will provide a moderate boost to the A350′s competitors such as the Boeing 777-300ER and 787-9 Dreamliner, similar to the boost seen in A330 sales precipitated by perennial delays to the 787. Notwithstanding this, the A350 should regain its edge over its competitors in the long-term, which is subject to change owing to Boeing’s potential response.
    ‪For the A350-1000, only time will tell what its true sales potential is. While the aircraft is likely to be a highly efficient stretched variant, a lot will depend on Boeing’s response to the A350-1000. In the interim, if Boeing were to introduce a further Performance Improvement Package (PIP) for the 777-300ER which will improve its fuel burn by 4% (“777 PIP further negates A350-1000′s business case“, 1st Mar, 10), which, combined with a 777-9X with a 2019 service entry, would likely squeeze A350-1000 sales. Though several carriers who have purchased the A350-800s and A350-900s have options to convert their orders to the larger A350-1000 variant, and any further design improvements may prove to be attractive to them.
    ‪All in all, the Airbus A350-900’s long-term prospects remain sound despite the latest 6-month delay in its entry into service (EIS) date. The A350 is an innovative product that builds on a leap in engine technologies to deliver superior fuel burn and maintenance improvements, both of which will ensure its place in airlines’ fleets for decades to come.


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    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Beochien Jeu 1 Déc 2011 - 22:40

    Bonjour !

    Ils savent bien des choses chez Aspire ... hum jocolor !
    Toujours la réponse à tout et des calculs de coûts ou de rentabilité , comme s'il en pleuvait ... clown
    Ils devraient être LA référence "Mondiale" d'ici peu ... Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 178692

    Juste noté un point totalement invraisemblable !

    Pour les TrenT XWB du 350-1000 !

    These engine modifications will add roughly 2.4 tonnes to the aircraft’s
    empty weight. Additionally, Aspire Aviation has learned from its
    sources at Airbus that the Airbus A350-1000 is around 5 tonnes
    overweight in Airbus’ design software.


    Ben, pour augmenter la puissance de 4%, (En tournant 6% plus vite et qq % d'augmentation du coeur ... et qq tweaks ...
    Il faudrait que RR augmente le poids de ses Trent de 20% (C'est à peu prés ça 1200 Kg / vs 6000 Kg )
    C'est largement invraisemblable ... Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 71321

    Celle là aussi :

    Fuel Burn
    For this mission, the Airbus A350-900 is around 24% more
    fuel efficient than the 777-200ER, mainly because the A350’s advantage
    in fuel burn during cruise is lessened due to the shorter stage length.
    During climb and descent, the A350 burns a similar amount of fuel to the
    777-200ER


    Pourquoi un A350-900! avec des moteurs plus efficaces, une aero plus moderne, et 35 tonnes de MTOW en plus, pour le 777-200 ER (et +/- une vingtaine à vide) pourquoi un A359 consommerait'il autant qu'un 777-200 ER, pour grimper à 35000 pieds ! Suspect

    Dans les mêmes incongruités ...un vrai chop suey entre "Fuel Efficient, SFC" , etc

    Boeing is targeting a 10% specific fuel consumption (SFC) improvement
    for the new engine versus the already fuel-efficient GE90-115B1 which
    burns 0.25 pounds of fuel per pound of thrust delivered per hour
    .

    Ben,si RR a eu tant de mal à gagner 5-6 pointd de SFC, avex les TXWB, (Et on attend de voir!) vs les T900, par exemple, Aspire et Boeing vont sortir 10 % de SFC (C'est beaucoup !!) du successeur au GE 90-115 (Déjà à 10 en BPR, et avec CR, de mémoire)!
    Comme ça, en appliquant la techno du Genx ... peut être !
    Holé , c'est du Randy tout craché , on dirait qu'il tient la plume des Aspire Boy's !
    Si ils comptent sur ce type d'infos pour refaire l'aviation ....C'est bien !

    Et si le reste est du même tonneau dans leurs calculs ou infos ...bof,
    Ces gens tartinent beaucoup, mais pour qui ! Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 560105

    JPRS


    Dernière édition par Beochien le Ven 2 Déc 2011 - 0:44, édité 1 fois
    Paul
    Paul
    Whisky Quebec


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Paul Ven 2 Déc 2011 - 0:25

    Bonjour Beochien,

    Daniel Tsang (Aspire Aviation) est un ancien contributeur de Fleetbuzz Editorial dont tout le monde connait le penchant envers Boeing...
    Beochien
    Beochien
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Beochien Ven 2 Déc 2011 - 0:45

    Ben oui Paul, et on s'en rend compte ....
    Poncho (Admin)
    Poncho (Admin)
    Whisky Charlie


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Poncho (Admin) Ven 2 Déc 2011 - 9:31

    Beochien, les 2.4t de plus en OEW pour l'A350-1000 à 308 t ont été annoncés par Airbus, dont de mémoire 400 kg pour les moteurs (par moteurs ? ou pour les deux je ne sais plus)

    Paul, merci pour cet éclairage

    Les contributions d'Aspire sont tjs très volumineuses.... après faut trier Wink

    Merci


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    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Beochien Ven 2 Déc 2011 - 9:38

    Ok Poncho !
    Pour 400 kg, ça me semble plus clair !
    Et si c'est pour les 2 moteurs , c'est encore mieux !
    C'est Aspire qui ont crée le doute dans leur présentation ... pour moi du moins !
    Menfin, ce ne sont pas les moteurs la cause majeure de l'augmentation de poids, mais plutôt les structures pour le nouvel MTOW !

    JPRS
    Poncho (Admin)
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    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Poncho (Admin) Ven 2 Déc 2011 - 9:46

    Oui
    Et Airbus / RR pensait qu'au final pour les moteur, le surpoids serait probablement plus réduit


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    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Rasta' Ven 2 Déc 2011 - 10:10

    Salut amigos!

    Paul m'a en effet devancé. Les fameuses sources de ce Aspire Aviation doivent se trouver du côté de Seattle

    Contenu sponsorisé


    Airbus A350XWB (partie 1) - Page 25 Empty Re: Airbus A350XWB (partie 1)

    Message par Contenu sponsorisé


      La date/heure actuelle est Lun 13 Mai 2024 - 4:56